Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[uzzi38]

It took Intel almost 6 years to recover from the misstep that was the Pentium 4. And that was against AMD, a smaller company that has given them bug bites, so to speak, from time to time. As if AMD eating their lunch with Ryzen wasn't bad enough, now they also have to face off against Apple, a behemoth they couldn't have imagined in their worst nightmare. I hope for the sake of x86 that Intel is able to put up a real fight and take back the performance crown. Otherwise, we'll all be running x86 emulators or virtualized Windows ARM on Apple silicon in the not-too-distant future.

What's there to catch up with? A15's got no per-core improvements to it's name, Golden Cove is enough for a thorough beat-down in per-core performance. Apple will likely have an efficiency advantage, but I can't imagine it'll be huge any more (at equalised power at ~3.5W or so - comparing peak power is pointless because of the nature of how power draw rises exponentially with higher clocks).

Also, Apple Silicon will never become mainstream for Windows systems lmao. What you need is the ARM vendors to have competent solutions, not Apple. And well, looking at the latest released Surface Pro X that still uses A76 cores... yeah I don't have even the slightest hopes in that future.

 

[Arkaign]

And if you really want to get what I'm talking about with regards to media fluff and PR spin, check this out as an example lol :

Premiere Pro Beta on Apple M1: The results are in

Premiere Pro performance gains on Apple M1 benchmarking in new Pfeiffer Report

blog.adobe.com

Sounds almost impressive until you start thinking about it, and it gets downright silly when you get to this part :

What was tested

The Pfeiffer Report compared the Premiere Pro Beta on 13” MacBook Pros with 2TB SSD hard drives. The M1 systems had the Apple M1 chipset with 8-core CPUs and GPUs and 16GB of Unified Memory. The Intel-based systems had 2.0 GHz quad-core CPUs and 16GB on onboard memory.

LMAO 🤣 Could it get any more obvious? It's not like the M1 isn't pretty awesome clock for clock in low core county scenarios, but to couch it vs a 4C 2Ghz setup is unintentionally hilarious.

Someone depending on this as a major workflow build would more likely be running a 16C or higher 4+Ghz Zen3 with 64-256GB of Ram, dGPU, etc.

Apple doesn't care about this market. The M1 iMac tops out at 16GB Ram. You can't get more even if you wanted to pay their absurd prices. How absurd? Going from 8GB base to 16GB (for not very fast ram btw). $200. The 1TB SSD instead of base 256GB? $400. Trash.

 

[Asterox]

What's there to catch up with? A15's got no per-core improvements to it's name, Golden Cove is enough for a thorough beat-down in per-core performance. Apple will likely have an efficiency advantage, but I can't imagine it'll be huge any more (at equalised power at ~3.5W or so - comparing peak power is pointless because of the nature of how power draw rises exponentially with higher clocks).

Also, Apple Silicon will never become mainstream for Windows systems lmao. What you need is the ARM vendors to have competent solutions, not Apple. And well, looking at the latest released Surface Pro X that still uses A76 cores... yeah I don't have even the slightest hopes in that future.

Ok, hm i hope that this combination will be able to run Windows 11.

8-16 Core ARM Cortex X1 or X2 CPU at 3-3.5 ghz for Windows 11 ARM version.

 

[Ajay]

Hmm, Nov 4th for Alderlake, maybe?

MSI has just confirmed Intel Alder Lake CPU launch date (November 4th) - VideoCardz.com

MSI confirms Intel Alder Lake launch date According to the MSI LGA1700 upgrade kit promo, Intel’s 12th Gen Core launch date is November 4th. MSI today announced a free upgrade kit for Intel LGA1700 CPUs and their Coreliquid CPU coolers. The press release did not mention any dates, but the form...

videocardz.com

 

[clemsyn]

Hmm, Nov 4th for Alderlake, maybe?

MSI has just confirmed Intel Alder Lake CPU launch date (November 4th) - VideoCardz.com

MSI confirms Intel Alder Lake launch date According to the MSI LGA1700 upgrade kit promo, Intel’s 12th Gen Core launch date is November 4th. MSI today announced a free upgrade kit for Intel LGA1700 CPUs and their Coreliquid CPU coolers. The press release did not mention any dates, but the form...

videocardz.com

I thought it was mid november but the earlier the better

 

[Ajay]

I thought it was mid november but the earlier the better

Well, nowadays, it’s 'launch event' followed by availability a week or two later.

 

[Joe NYC]

Windows 11 circus is not worthy of any additional comment or discussion.

Sisoftsandra Preview experienced an NDA air strike, deleted or disappeared in the form of fog.But ok, Web arhive saved the situation.

https://www.sisoftware.co.uk/2021/0...ew-benchmarks-big-little-performance-preview/

Intel 12th Gen Core AlderLake (i9-12900K) Review & Benchmarks – big/LITTLE Performance – Preview – SiSoftware

web.archive.org

Is it now official that Windows 11 is garbage, or do we still need additional information?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1442543547433971721

 

[Mopetar]

Don't know about that. How does that help them compete with M1? M1X will further cement Apple's supremacy as the most powerful and power-efficient processor maker. Intel needs a decade to get anywhere close to that and by then, Apple will be further still.

Intel isn't competing with Apple. Apple won't put Intel CPUs in their products and Apple won't sell their SoCs to anyone else. Apple might compete against some of Intel's customers in some markets, but not terribly much outside of a few categories. Apple will never cut margins to chase the bottom of the market so Intel scarcely has to worry about Apple.

Maybe you could say they face competition from other ARM SoC makers, but none are even close to Apple right now, so it's less of a worry than AMD who is an immediate competitor.

 

[deasd]

In the financial computation ADL is 55% ahead of RKL in two tests out of three, that s about the expected throughput improvement in non AVX512 computation.

Also it match the 5900X in one test, is ahead by 10% in another one and losing the third by 10%, so that s a tie albeit with only 3 tests.

Seesawing Intel Core i9-12900K sample with disabled AVX-512 teeters against the i9-11900K in preview benchmarks and fails to overwhelm the AMD Ryzen 9 5900X

A benchmark preview of the Intel Core i9-12900K has been accidentally posted online, and it shows the 12th Gen Alder Lake hybrid chip offering a seesaw-like performance against the Rocket Lake i9-11900K. While the engineering sample does show promise even without the AVX-512 instruction set, it...

www.notebookcheck.net

what's shocking me: 1.the gap between 5900x & 11900k, per-core performance between these two is not the same as other benches like cinebench, 11900k with avx512 should have ruled against everything below 12C24T but it still lags behind 5900x painfully in Sisoftware
2. this is my guess, the small cores in alderlake seems to have crippled AVX performance? just for die area saving?

 

[LightningZ71]

Wait, I thought that AVX512 was disabled in the Golden Cove cores in AlderLake? It should be AVX2 only...

 

[Arkaign]

Wait, I thought that AVX512 was disabled in the Golden Cove cores in AlderLake? It should be AVX2 only...

Iirc you're correct. Intel got a lot of negative press based on the perceived lack of need for AVX512 in consumer and even prosumer level CPUs as being wasteful and mostly pointless, so this seems like a course correction, leaving AVX512 to the future derivative HEDT/back-office and up (the ones with octo-channel DDR5 ECC, etc such as Coyote Pass?) Interestingly, I saw info on a Xeon CPU with 64GB of on-package HBM @ 1TB/sec 😵 I bet that will cost the price of a car, lol.

 

[jpiniero]

Iirc you're correct. Intel got a lot of negative press based on the perceived lack of need for AVX512 in consumer and even prosumer level CPUs as being wasteful and mostly pointless

Nope. AVX-512 is still physically there. It looks more like Intel didn't want the bad PR about suggesting if you want AVX-512 you need to disable the small cores.

 

[Ajay]

Nope. AVX-512 is still physically there. It looks more like Intel didn't want the bad PR about suggesting if you want AVX-512 you need to disable the small cores.

Guess that's why Intel HEDT will become a thing again when SPR is out. Some producing content and Sci/Eng tasks will AVX3 (freaking morans couldn't pick a simple name). Plus more I/O, etc...

 

[jpiniero]

There could still be some Alder Lake Xeons (E/W) released that have AVX-512 enabled.

 

[Arkaign]

Nope. AVX-512 is still physically there. It looks more like Intel didn't want the bad PR about suggesting if you want AVX-512 you need to disable the small cores.

Right, but it's fused off, so no waste of power/heat/overhead in the scheme. Other than some dead die space, it's like it doesn't exist.

AnandTech Forums: Technology, Hardware, Software, and Deals

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www.anandtech.com

 

[Arkaign]

Also LOL Linus is never less than utterly blunt

Linus Torvalds: I hope Intel's AVX-512 'dies a painful death'

Torvalds wants Intel to address real-world uses, not supercomputer benchmarks and "special-case garbage".

www.zdnet.com

 

[Panino Manino]

Is it now official that Windows 11 is garbage, or do we still need additional information?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1442543547433971721

Explain to me, who is the responsible for this work (and work like this)?
It's Microsoft that makes the decision alone to improve Windows to work better on future CPUs and it's Intel that goes after Microsoft proposing they do this work? There's any payment from Intel for the time that Microsoft programmers spend working?

It's a mystery why AMD isn't more proactive about things like this that endanger their business.
Right now they're working on a new ACPI CPUFreq driver to improve PPW: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-discloses-new-cppc-ryzen-driver-at-conference

"In preliminary tests with a Ryzen 7 5750G, AMD found that the new driver has already boosted Zen 3's performance per watt by 10-25%. In TBench and Speedometer 2.0, AMD found a 10.6% improvement in power efficiency using the OnDemand governor. But the largest improvement was from the Gitsource Benchmark, which saw a 26.6% improvement in power efficiency with the same governor.

In a gaming test, AMD showed off a quick demo of Horizon Zero Dawn running on a Ryzen 7 Pro 5750G, locked to 60FPS, to demonstrate the enhancements made to AMD's new P-state driver. The test shows that the new AMD P-state driver, reduces the clock speed of idle cores significantly, to just 400mhz. Meanwhile, all the idle cores running on the older ACPI driver are only going down to just 3.8GHz."

Their CPUs are being hurt by a decade old driver made by Intel, and it was Valve that went to them proposing changes.
Why AMD is unable to take better care of itself? It's lack of money and influence or they're just stupid?

 

[Arkaign]

Explain to me, who is the responsible for this work (and work like this)?
It's Microsoft that makes the decision alone to improve Windows to work better on future CPUs and it's Intel that goes after Microsoft proposing they do this work? There's any payment from Intel for the time that Microsoft programmers spend working?

It's a mystery why AMD isn't more proactive about things like this that endanger their business.
Right now they're working on a new ACPI CPUFreq driver to improve PPW: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-discloses-new-cppc-ryzen-driver-at-conference

"In preliminary tests with a Ryzen 7 5750G, AMD found that the new driver has already boosted Zen 3's performance per watt by 10-25%. In TBench and Speedometer 2.0, AMD found a 10.6% improvement in power efficiency using the OnDemand governor. But the largest improvement was from the Gitsource Benchmark, which saw a 26.6% improvement in power efficiency with the same governor.

In a gaming test, AMD showed off a quick demo of Horizon Zero Dawn running on a Ryzen 7 Pro 5750G, locked to 60FPS, to demonstrate the enhancements made to AMD's new P-state driver. The test shows that the new AMD P-state driver, reduces the clock speed of idle cores significantly, to just 400mhz. Meanwhile, all the idle cores running on the older ACPI driver are only going down to just 3.8GHz."

Their CPUs are being hurt by a decade old driver made by Intel, and it was Valve that went to them proposing changes.
Why AMD is unable to take better care of itself? It's lack of money and influence or they're just stupid?

It sounds like they're at least trying to address it somewhat although your point is well taken. For all of AMD's laudable achievements in the recent past, software side has had some real doozies that give me pause. The widespread black screen issues that plagued 5000 series for about a year comes to mind, and the recent dropping of R200 series driver support, which is especially insulting considering how supply constrained GPUs are. A 290 or 290X should not be getting ditched so casually. It's stuff like that along with the cooperation with Microsoft that gives the impression AMD has not put much of a priority on their driver and OS departments.

 

[Joe NYC]

In a gaming test, AMD showed off a quick demo of Horizon Zero Dawn running on a Ryzen 7 Pro 5750G, locked to 60FPS, to demonstrate the enhancements made to AMD's new P-state driver. The test shows that the new AMD P-state driver, reduces the clock speed of idle cores significantly, to just 400mhz. Meanwhile, all the idle cores running on the older ACPI driver are only going down to just 3.8GHz."

Their CPUs are being hurt by a decade old driver made by Intel, and it was Valve that went to them proposing changes.
Why AMD is unable to take better care of itself? It's lack of money and influence or they're just stupid?

I agree about the driver.

But the game slowdown from Windows 10 to Windows 11seems entirely the result of rushed release of Windows 11, where they "forgot" the installed base of a billion PCs and are fiddling with scheduler to improve performance for CPU that is not even released yet.

This may be a complete disaster for Microsoft if Windows 11 is slower running applications than Widows 10.

Reminds me of the Madman Microsoft had who single-handedly hijacked Windows 8, turned it into a disaster and was promptly fired by Microsoft...

Similarly, that release of Windows was optimized for Mobile phones, where Microsoft had negligible market share, at expense of billion user installed base of Windows desktop and notebook.

 

[Zucker2k]

Has Windows 11 been released?

Edit: How about Windows 11 GPU drivers from the Radeon camp?

 

[Arkaign]

I agree about the driver.

But the game slowdown from Windows 10 to Windows 11seems entirely the result of rushed release of Windows 11, where they "forgot" the installed base of a billion PCs and are fiddling with scheduler to improve performance for CPU that is not even released yet.

This may be a complete disaster for Microsoft if Windows 11 is slower running applications than Widows 10.

Reminds me of the Madman Microsoft had who single-handedly hijacked Windows 8, turned it into a disaster and was promptly fired by Microsoft...

Similarly, that release of Windows was optimized for Mobile phones, where Microsoft had negligible market share, at expense of billion user installed base of Windows desktop and notebook.

 

[dullard]

Has Windows 11 been released?

Edit: How about Windows 11 GPU drivers from the Radeon camp?

I find it very telling when someone complains about bias in an unreleased operating system with unreleased drivers where the 99th percentile value in a single game dropped a non-noticeable 4.7% and was already over 300 fps.

 

[Joe NYC]

I find it very telling when someone complains about bias in an unreleased operating system with unreleased drivers where the 99th percentile value in a single game dropped a non-noticeable 4.7% and was already over 300 fps.

Final bits of Windows 11 should be ready now. The release is in 8 days.

We will see if there is a pattern of Windows 11 performing worse on the same applications than Windows 10.

 

[Makaveli]

lol Balmer did a line before he went up on stage no doubt.

 

[Ajay]

lol Balmer did a line before he went up on stage no doubt.

His net worth is something like $100B. I'd of gotten up there and done that act for less.