Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[krumme]

Remember Phenom true quad core...?
I think the funny thing is marketing pokes about the glue or the likes always end up as a failure.
Not only sounding like a smartass but also beeing a jackass. Marketing Hybris consistently leads to Nemesis.
One have to wonder if its the last time we hear this stuff or some jackass in marketing is still alive after all those failures.

 

[Hulk]

One have to wonder if its the last time we hear this stuff or some jackass in marketing is still alive after all those failures.

For better or (mostly) worse marketing is alive and well. And there is always another jackass coming up to fill the jackass void.

 

[coercitiv]

I think the rules of engagement for making fun of the competition are very simple: you're only allowed to make fun of the competition when YOU have the the better product. Try to pull this stunt in a context such as Intel's "glued Epyc" or AMD's "poor Volta" and you get a boomerang effect.

I still remember the first Tiger Lake launch when Intel marketing reps managed to pronounce AMD product names more often than they did for Tiger Lake SKUs. Intel effectively ran the biggest AMD commercial because their marketing department never realized TGL SKU line cannot be remembered and pronounced by normal humans (including themselves).

When marketing does it's job right a company gets tremendous benefits, but when they fail the company gets this:

I hope Intel (marketing) cleans up their act with Alder Lake, both in terms of claims and product naming.

 

[scannall]

Intel gets a little salty when they aren't in the lead. After the M1 was introduced they referred to Apple as a "Lifestyle Company'. I find it more amusing than anything really. Nothing to be upset about.

 

[eek2121]

What cracked me up at the time was that same marketing material quoting a WCCFtech article to support their arguments against Zen.

AMD and Intel both have quoted WCCFTech. Both times I facepalmed.

Remember Phenom true quad core...?
I think the funny thing is marketing pokes about the glue or the likes always end up as a failure.
Not only sounding like a smartass but also beeing a jackass. Marketing Hybris consistently leads to Nemesis.
One have to wonder if its the last time we hear this stuff or some jackass in marketing is still alive after all those failures.

The “true” quad core debate started with the Q6600 and related chips. IIRC the Q6600 actually consisted of two dual core chips. I never understood that argument, because the Q6600 still walked all over AMD stuff.

 

[eek2121]

I think the rules of engagement for making fun of the competition are very simple: you're only allowed to make fun of the competition when YOU have the the better product. Try to pull this stunt in a context such as Intel's "glued Epyc" or AMD's "poor Volta" and you get a boomerang effect.

I still remember the first Tiger Lake launch when Intel marketing reps managed to pronounce AMD product names more often than they did for Tiger Lake SKUs. Intel effectively ran the biggest AMD commercial because their marketing department never realized TGL SKU line cannot be remembered and pronounced by normal humans (including themselves).

When marketing does it's job right a company gets tremendous benefits, but when they fail the company gets this:

I hope Intel (marketing) cleans up their act with Alder Lake, both in terms of claims and product naming.

Maybe with Alder Lake we will see a return to sanity. Probably not, however.

 

[IntelUser2000]

The “true” quad core debate started with the Q6600 and related chips. IIRC the Q6600 actually consisted of two dual core chips. I never understood that argument, because the Q6600 still walked all over AMD stuff.

Don't make a mistake, AMD's approach with Phenom quad core was sound. But Core architecture was so much better it didn't matter.

When Nehalem was introduced, it really showed it's muscle. Of course mostly for servers since for client it was mostly the SMT. For ST it was really only about 5-10% better normalizing for Turbo.

Intel gets a little salty when they aren't in the lead. After the M1 was introduced they referred to Apple as a "Lifestyle Company'. I find it more amusing than anything really. Nothing to be upset about.

I actually thought of it as "We only make CPUs and we're losing to a company that makes an entire system plus people view it as a fashion accessory of sorts".

To me it sounded like it was embarassed. Maybe just difference in viewpoint.

 

[moinmoin]

I actually thought of it as "We only make CPUs and we're losing to a company that makes an entire system plus people view it as a fashion accessory of sorts".

To me it sounded like it was embarassed. Maybe just difference in viewpoint.

That was my take as well. Also Gelsinger said this at an internal all-hands company meeting back in January, so the target were his (at that point future) employees. Essentially an appeal to their honor.

 

[dullard]

I think you are going out of your way to find a way to be offended. In your mind you've created this scenario that when AMD said glue no one cared but when Intel did, *GASP* it hit the fan. How about the fact that Intel called Epyc glued together "Desktop" Die? It was much more smartass and just not factual.

Where did I say that I was offended? I said that it is humorous.

 

[dullard]

Please show me where the term chiplet was used further back than a couple of years ago. Again, putting multiple die on 1 substrate does not equal chiplets. You are completely discounting the work/tech behind AMD's chiplet solution.

I didn't say a thing about AMD's solution. AMD did quite a good job. I'm typing on a Ryzen right now. I'm simply stating that I find it humorous that people hated chiplets until they love them. They loved it when AMD said glue, but hate it when Intel says glue. There is quite a double standard and I don't understand your defense of it.

Do I really have to google "Chiplets" for you? Does 2011 count as "further back than a couple of years ago"? https://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-lefurgy/micromag2011.pdf How about 2009? https://www.pnas.org/content/107/3/993 How far back until it counts? But that is a false goose chase anyways. Chiplets isn't the only term. Heterogeneous and coprocessor are also commonly used terms for non-monolythic CPUs.

 

[Asterox]

Intel gets a little salty when they aren't in the lead. After the M1 was introduced they referred to Apple as a "Lifestyle Company'. I find it more amusing than anything really. Nothing to be upset about.

To put it mildly, or when Intel marketing use "insanely fast" you now that "someone ate too much poisonous garlic".

Definition of INSANELY

in an insane manner : in a way that suggests unsoundness or disorder of mind; to a very extreme degree… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Hitman928]

I didn't say a thing about AMD's solution. AMD did quite a good job. I'm typing on a Ryzen right now. I'm simply stating that I find it humorous that people hated chiplets until they love them. They loved it when AMD said glue, but hate it when Intel says glue. There is quite a double standard and I don't understand your defense of it.

The problem is you're just completely missing context and accuracy around all your posts.

Do I really have to google "Chiplets" for you? Does 2011 count as "further back than a couple of years ago"? https://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-lefurgy/micromag2011.pdf How about 2009? https://www.pnas.org/content/107/3/993 How far back until it counts? But that is a false goose chase anyways. Chiplets isn't the only term. Heterogeneous and coprocessor are also commonly used terms for non-monolythic CPUs.

I meant more in terms of on these forums or in computer enthusiast circles in general as you said specifically:

In this forum terminology going back the 20 years that I've actively posted here, Chiplet = glue, monolithic = no glue

Obviously there will be tech and research papers talking about chiplets as these things don't come out of thin air but no one even in enthusiast forums such as this one was talking about them and especially not in context of mainstream or even general server CPUs.

I don't know why you are so confused as pretty much everyone else seems to get it. It's pretty simple, when Intel is behind and taking inaccurate pot shots at AMD, Intel's messaging deserves ridicule. When Intel is behind and people are criticizing their lack of vision and rush jobs to compete with inferior tech, the criticism is valid. The same applies to AMD or Nvidia or whomever. If AMD literally just put multiple die on a substrate with the traditional links with terrible latency, bandwidth issues, power balancing issues, traffic conflicts, etc., leading to an inferior and poorly planned product, then sure, Intel's slide would have been valid and everyone would have agreed. That's not what happened, though, and so that slide just makes Intel look foolish.

 

[Ajay]

Maybe we can get off this discussion of CPU designers bogus claims. Most of it is ancient and has already been beaten the death in the past. THX.

 

[eek2121]

I guess Intel will be ramping up 7nm next year after all. Interesting…

 

[Ajay]

I guess Intel will be ramping up 7nm next year after all. Interesting…

I there a new news story out?

 

[Saylick]

I there a new news story out?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1677...s-portfolio-for-intel-foundry-services-on-7nm
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1678...latform-with-sifive-p550-cores-on-7nm-in-2022

 

[Ajay]

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1677...s-portfolio-for-intel-foundry-services-on-7nm
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1678...latform-with-sifive-p550-cores-on-7nm-in-2022

Oh, well, the tiny chips will make some pipe cleaners. Small low perf cores would be useful in embedded designs that requires some general compute ability. Maybe RISC-V + ASIC? Although, doesn't Intel already have ARM cores for ASIC/FPGA designs?

Thanks.

 

[eek2121]

Oh, well, the tiny chips will make some pipe cleaners. Small low perf cores would be useful in embedded designs that requires some general compute ability. Maybe RISC-V + ASIC? Although, doesn't Intel already have ARM cores for ASIC/FPGA designs?

Thanks.

Definitely not a successor to golden cove, but also not as simple as you imply. This should help Intel ramp up 7nm quickly.

 

[maddie]

Definitely not a successor to golden cove, but also not as simple as you imply. This should help Intel ramp up 7nm quickly.

How do you reason that? ASML production is the limiting factor for worldwide EUV ramps and I haven't seen info to suggest Intel is getting or have a large enough quantity of these litho machines.

 

[gdansk]

Intel gets a little salty when they aren't in the lead. After the M1 was introduced they referred to Apple as a "Lifestyle Company'. I find it more amusing than anything really. Nothing to be upset about.

The CEO said that. In an internal email. That wasn't marketing. It was meant for internal consumption. They're currently getting outdone by a company who happens to make processors but for whom it is not their entire business. It should be a motivating comparison.

 

[Hulk]

Although I don't have the knowledge of this business that many around here do I feel as though Intel has been so used to not having competition that they don't really know how to compete. Let me explain. For years they would release small upgrade at huge prices on THEIR schedule more so than at the need of staying competitive.

Apple, AMD, TSMC, Samsung, etc... they are putting out the best technology they can get out the door as fast as possible. Intel is having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that they indeed have competition and what seems like a minor loss of market or technological lead could become problematic rather quickly and suddenly if they don't move the tiller full port and avoid the iceberg a couple miles in front of them.

 

[Ajay]

How do you reason that? ASML production is the limiting factor for worldwide EUV ramps and I haven't seen info to suggest Intel is getting or have a large enough quantity of these litho machines.

Well, sadly, that's Intel's own fault. From my understanding they had options/contracts to buy more EUV machines from ASML. They cancelled those as they were behind on 7nm. This didn't bother ASML because demand outstripped supply anyway. Now, Intel has come up begging, but ASML can only expand at a relatively low rate because of the complexity of both the assembly and test, and the complexity of their supply chain.

Such an amazing win - saving on production equipment and offering over $8B to investors instead - freaking corrupt morons. //rant

 

[Saylick]

Well, sadly, that's Intel's own fault. From my understanding they had options/contracts to buy more EUV machines from ASML. They cancelled those as they were behind on 7nm. This didn't bother ASML because demand outstripped supply anyway. Now, Intel has come up begging, but ASML can only expand at a relatively low rate because of the complexity of both the assembly and test, and the complexity of their supply chain.

Such an amazing win - saving on production equipment and offering over $8B to investors instead - freaking corrupt morons. //rant

Intel dropped the ball so hard from 2015 onward that it didn't even know where the ball was for a few years. To their credit, their timing was god awful when it came to development of their 10nm node. Back in 2015, EUV wasn't quite mature/ready for HVM so they pushed forward with using SAQP and DUV for the 10nm node, which as we all now know had developmental issues for being overly aggressive. By the time they resigned to relaxing the node a few years later, EUV was mature enough such that TSMC and Samsung started ordering them from ASML so that they could develop their future nodes. Intel was still stuck trying to fix 10nm that they put 7nm on the backburner, letting TSMC and Samsung hog up EUV machines for the foreseeable future. So here we are today with Intel in the process of ramping up 10n, after Intel finally admitted that their 7nm node was going to be behind schedule with only a fraction of the world's EUV machine supply. Intel is going to have to pull the strings of the US government if they want to get more machines, because I wouldn't be surprised if ASML just tells them to get to the back of the line.

I mean, just look at the projected volume ramp for 7nm... and then compare it to TSMC.

Source:

ASML Stock Is In A Sweet Spot (NASDAQ:ASML)

ASML' stock may be helped by the global chip shortage a bit longer than its chipmaker customers because only ASML can supply EUV and DUV tools.

seekingalpha.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1391424722257080322

 

[maddie]

Intel dropped the ball so hard from 2015 onward that it didn't even know where the ball was for a few years. To their credit, their timing was god awful when it came to development of their 10nm node. Back in 2015, EUV wasn't quite mature/ready for HVM so they pushed forward with using SAQP and DUV for the 10nm node, which as we all now know had developmental issues for being overly aggressive. By the time they resigned to relaxing the node a few years later, EUV was mature enough such that TSMC and Samsung started ordering them from ASML so that they could develop their future nodes. Intel was still stuck trying to fix 10nm that they put 7nm on the backburner, letting TSMC and Samsung hog up EUV machines for the foreseeable future. So here we are today with Intel in the process of ramping up 10n, after Intel finally admitted that their 7nm node was going to be behind schedule with only a fraction of the world's EUV machine supply. Intel is going to have to pull the strings of the US government if they want to get more machines, because I wouldn't be surprised if ASML just tells them to get to the back of the line.

I mean, just look at the projected volume ramp for 7nm... and then compare it to TSMC.

Source:

ASML Stock Is In A Sweet Spot (NASDAQ:ASML)

ASML' stock may be helped by the global chip shortage a bit longer than its chipmaker customers because only ASML can supply EUV and DUV tools.

seekingalpha.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1391424722257080322

The future appears quite clear for anyone without bias.

2023 production for nodes using EUV
TSMC = 370 Kwpm
Intel = 20 Kwpm

 

[IntelUser2000]

That was my take as well. Also Gelsinger said this at an internal all-hands company meeting back in January, so the target were his (at that point future) employees. Essentially an appeal to their honor.

I hate how people just blow it out of proportion nowadays.