Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

Page 727 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Exist50

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2016
1,693
1,775
136
Perhaps MTL is a Mobile Only CPU?
Well there were the rumors that MTL-S and ARL-S are landing around the same time. This would lend credence to that. If the mobile chips only barely make it by the end of '23, it would make sense for the desktop chips with a different SoC (and compute die?) to be pushed into '24.

Or they split the lineup. RPL-S for high end/gaming, and MTL-S for OEM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: coercitiv

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
5,364
8,937
136
Perhaps MTL is a Mobile Only CPU?
ML is a totally new (for Intel), product, so there could be problems with communication between the chiplets.
MTL is hopefully proof that Intel 4 is not vaporware, and I hope it comes out in better relative shape than Icelake, because it's an important stepping stone for Intel.

However, I purposely left out MTL from the desktop discussion because Raptor Lake refresh by itself signals a problem, a hole in their roadmap. That hole would be better filled with a proper tick, even if that means a Raptor Cove shrink. Meteor Lake on the desktop might as well be planned for the next desktop cycle, to be used as the cheaper die for value parts.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Joe NYC

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
12,810
4,097
136
Or they split the lineup. RPL-S for high end/gaming, and MTL-S for OEM.
If you look at the slide, it shows the entire desktop lineup is getting the Raptor Lake Refresh. So no. But the timing suggests that whatever they are going to do afterwards would be released in Q3 2024.
 

Exist50

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2016
1,693
1,775
136
If you look at the slide, it shows the entire desktop lineup is getting the Raptor Lake Refresh. So no. But the timing suggests that whatever they are going to do afterwards would be released in Q3 2024.
They'd done weird, non-yearly steps before, notably with Kaby Lake->Coffee Lake and Rocket Lake->Alder Lake. But agreed it probably makes more sense to think of MTL-S as an ARL contemporary.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
20,481
9,557
136
TSMC 3nm and Intel 4 products could co-exist to meet volume. Depends on whether Intel has enough TSMC 3nm wafer allocation.
If Arrow Lake is still on-track for 2024, why bother releasing Meteor Lake-S at all? It should be an inferior product vs. Arrow Lake.
 

ashFTW

Senior member
Sep 21, 2020
262
183
96
Well there were the rumors that MTL-S and ARL-S are landing around the same time. This would lend credence to that. If the mobile chips only barely make it by the end of '23, it would make sense for the desktop chips with a different SoC (and compute die?) to be pushed into '24.

Or they split the lineup. RPL-S for high end/gaming, and MTL-S for OEM.
If you pay attention to the colors in the figure below, ARL will have the same SOC and IOE tiles but different CPU and GPU tiles presumably on Intel 20A and some External process respectively.
 

Attachments

Exist50

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2016
1,693
1,775
136
If you pay attention to the colors in the figure below, ARL will have the same SOC and IOE tiles but different CPU and GPU tiles presumably on Intel 20A and some External process respectively.
I was speaking entirely of Meteor Lake. They probably can't reuse the mobile SoC die for desktop, even within the Meteor Lake family, so that's another die/product/platform to develop. And if they're actually making a 6+16 desktop compute tile, that too.
 

ashFTW

Senior member
Sep 21, 2020
262
183
96
I was speaking entirely of Meteor Lake. They probably can't reuse the mobile SoC die for desktop, even within the Meteor Lake family, so that's another die/product/platform to develop. And if they're actually making a 6+16 desktop compute tile, that too.
I expect all (10W to 100W) of MTL and ARL to use the same SOC tile; it’s the “central hub“ in the disaggregated design. The extra IO for desktop will be on a larger IOE tile. But the design does allow for variable SOC tiles.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,896
189
106
In case the folks around here need a reminder of what Intel's plans looked like just 1 year ago, here's their roadmap as described at Intel's Accelerated event in the summer of 2021. Intel 4 was supposed to ramp up in 2022 and deliver products in H1 2023. And that's the updated timeline, after they had already announced a ~12 month delay at the end 2020.

View attachment 72529

It feels like 2017 all over again, only this time at least they have better contingency plans both in terms of design and manufacturing. Looking forward to Intel 7+ in 2023.
This AnandTech slide is an utter misrepresentation of what Intel actually announced in mid-2021. TLDR: Intel's roadmap has remained the same sind mid-2020, there have been 0 delays and 1 pull-in.

*The HVM window for all nodes has always been 6 months. For Intel 4 it was H2'22... And Intel just announced that it has started manufacturing on Intel 4, so it is on schedule.
*Intel is known for its annual cadence. Meteor Lake in H2'23 is consistent with Raptor Lake in H2'22 (even if Bob Swan did initially say early 2023. Pat Gelsinger has never said this).
*20A has always been H1'24 (in time for Arrow Lake launch in H2'24), so the AnandTech timeline is wrong.
*18A was initially early 2025 (not mid-2025 like the AnandTech slide), but Intel has since pulled this in to H2'24.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
12,810
4,097
136
This AnandTech slide is an utter misrepresentation of what Intel actually announced in mid-2021. TLDR: Intel's roadmap has remained the same sind mid-2020, there have been 0 delays and 1 pull-in.

*The HVM window for all nodes has always been 6 months. For Intel 4 it was H2'22... And Intel just announced that it has started manufacturing on Intel 4, so it is on schedule.
*Intel is known for its annual cadence. Meteor Lake in H2'23 is consistent with Raptor Lake in H2'22 (even if Bob Swan did initially say early 2023. Pat Gelsinger has never said this).
*20A has always been H1'24 (in time for Arrow Lake launch in H2'24), so the AnandTech timeline is wrong.
*18A was initially early 2025 (not mid-2025 like the AnandTech slide), but Intel has since pulled this in to H2'24.
In case you haven't been paying attention, Meteor Lake is looking like a 2024 product in reality (although maybe they will launch something paperish at the end of 2023) and presumably Arrow Lake would be a year later... and that's also in reality fabbed at TSMC.
 

eek2121

Platinum Member
Aug 2, 2005
2,292
2,995
136
We’ve seen no indications Intel is porting it’s core design for desktop or mobile to TSMC. I mentioned this i. the other thread, but this is what I strongly suspect we will see:

2023 Desktop: Raptor Lake Refresh
2023 Mobile (possibly q1 2024): Mostly Raptor Lake with some Meteor Lake parts for premium “thin and light” laptops. Possibly a NUC release later on

2024 Desktop: Arrow Lake, Maybe some Meteor Lake, and possibly some Raptor Lake covering high volume SKUs.

2024 Laptop: Meteor Lake/Arrow Lake.

Things will be similar to what Intel did with Raptor Lake and Alder Lake for 13th gen with some SKUs.

EDIT: Also note that the competition is doing something similar on mobile as well.

Expect multiple designs on multiple nodes for a single generation to be a strategy used widely in the future as better processes cost significantly more and may have lower volume.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZGR and coercitiv

Joe NYC

Senior member
Jun 26, 2021
987
1,117
96
Did you see the updated version that came out this week? Not much change, but 18A was moved forward from Q3 2025 to H2 2024. Yet, you needed to highlight a delay from years ago in your post?
View attachment 72540
Q3 2021 was when Alder Lake (on Intel 7) was released, with processors widely available in Q4 2021

Regarding Intel 4, it says it is ready Q3 2022 / Today, but no product is anywhere close to wide availability, so we have to take Intel's word for it, that it is ready "today" while something else is holding up Meteor Lake release.
 

clemsyn

Senior member
Aug 21, 2005
493
159
116
Q3 2021 was when Alder Lake (on Intel 7) was released, with processors widely available in Q4 2021

Regarding Intel 4, it says it is ready Q3 2022 / Today, but no product is anywhere close to wide availability, so we have to take Intel's word for it, that it is ready "today" while something else is holding up Meteor Lake release.
That 7nm (Intel 4) must be a big headache for Intel. Would be very surprised it they hit the target with Intel 3, 20A and 18A.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe NYC

nicalandia

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,955
4,556
136
Something's clearly off with this comparison. Gracemont should have a much larger margin over Tremont. Maybe wildly different power limits?
Both are 15 Watt SKUs,

I see a 25% boost in ST Performance at about the same speed(2.8 Ghz) and about 2% faster on MT despite a 18% speed deficiency

Perhaps this is a better graph
1671040034627.png


So all in all, it's a great IPC Jump of about 20-25% at ISO TDP
 
  • Love
Reactions: eek2121

Exist50

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2016
1,693
1,775
136
I see a 25% boost in ST Performance at about the same speed(2.8 Ghz) and about 2% faster on MT despite a 18% speed deficiency
We know from ADL silicon that Gracemont clocks way higher than Tremont, in addition to the IPC boost. It's completely nonsensical for the two to perform similarly in MT at iso-power, and some previous results support this conclusion. So either the result is just garbage, or they're not being run at the same power limits.

Where are you seeing that they're both running at 15W?
 

nicalandia

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,955
4,556
136
Where are you seeing that they're both running at 15W?
The Gracemont CPU listed there is a direct replacement of the Jasper CPU. and that CPU is rated at 15 watt

1671042099516.png


The leaked Gracemont CPU will be the Intel Celeron N6095, but Geekbench is reading the CPU as Intel N95 instead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BorisTheBlade82

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
24,329
2,558
126
We know from ADL silicon that Gracemont clocks way higher than Tremont, in addition to the IPC boost. It's completely nonsensical for the two to perform similarly in MT at iso-power, and some previous results support this conclusion. So either the result is just garbage, or they're not being run at the same power limits.

Where are you seeing that they're both running at 15W?
Geekbench doesn't tell you a lot about the setup. The N95 says it is in the balanced power plan, but the N5095 doesn't have the power plan listed at all. Plus, the power used on both would be highly dependent on other factors that are not controlled here (I assume these were in mini PC form factors where heat buildup is quite a concern. Did both have fans? Are both passively cooled? Etc.) The N5095 that was selected has scores that look to be roughly on par with a balanced power plan, but it would have been nice to know.

Does anyone know if there are effects from different memory amounts (16 GB vs 7.75 GB) or different Geekbench versions (5.4.5 vs 5.4.1)? Also, memory speeds aren't listed which I assume could impact multithreaded benchmarks.
 
Last edited:

ASK THE COMMUNITY