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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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Slide is def fake if it is talking about released in 2020 products.

By the time Alder Lake-S ships, AMD will very likely have released TSMC 5 nm desktop parts. You would think (if they don't lose interest in the desktop between now and then, heh) they would move to 7 nm ASAP.
 
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ksec

Senior member
Mar 5, 2010
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It is a myth that high end smartphones chips cost $30. qualcomm and samsung use leading edge process and their die sizes are not small either. in some ways snapdragon chips are more complex that apples. chinese manufacturers are exceptions since they use off-the-shelf logic from ARM and do not use leading edge process.
Well I didn't said Qualcomm or Samsung Flagship cost $30. Most Tablet tends to use cheap / cheaper SoC. Aa far as I am aware there is the premium tablet which is mostly Apple, and there is just tablet which is mostly very very cheap models.

I guess Microsoft is willing to break into this market even if it was break even for them.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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Jasper Lake makes much more sense as its 2020 and next -S chips are using Rocketlake. We haven't even seen Cometlake yet.
 
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mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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Jasper/Elkhart Lake is a fail somehow, it's way too late. It should be available right now and not in like 6 months. They have disclosed Tremont last year in October and looks like we won't see products based on this in the next few months, it's too silent. They may release products at the end of 2020 with outdated Gen11 when their new Xe is ready, it's not appealing. Same for Lakefield. Next try Gracemont, hopefully this Atom generation will have a bigger impact.
 

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
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Like I said before, this is a proper return to Tablet chips since they abandoned it with Broxton in 2015. You can do it with Core, but its very clunky. Tablets based on Core weigh much more while the subpar integration sacrifices battery size and design flexibility. Core addresses 13 inch-plus systems while Lakefield will go down to 8-10 inches like every other Tablet, or have a very portable clamshell.
In Automotive, Intel is still offering the Goldmont(Apollo Lake) even though it is not available for Consumers. (Probably due to contractual obligations)
One of its advantages being the SoC and the IGP with the clDNN and the entire SW stack being Open source is very attractive from delivery, customization and extensions by T1s compared to CUDA for example. It could be built together with Yocto as part of the base image compared to the usual closed source binary deliveries from you know who.
Also it is not limited to OpenGL ES for graphics like the incumbent vendors.

There is no replacement for Goldmont since a couple of years. Also clDNN is not being updated since months, replaced by OneAPI?
However, lack of an integrated 5G modem means most of the Cloud facing ECUs will continue to rely on Qualcomm and a surprise windfall for Exynos with the likes of Tegra falling out of favour (due to lack of comprehensive 5G connectivity solutions) going forward. ( Compute ECUs are a different case.)
As for Automotive specific processes, they have competition from Samsung's 18FDS for those parts which need to meet higher AEC and ASIL requirements.
They don't have a competing process here.

Its a bit unfortunate its taking so long to get Lakefield out. Hopefully future generations improve on timing so to catch up with Core timelines. I believe despite the rocky start this will bring on a new future for x86.
I wonder what are Intel's plans in this Auto market. A little screwed if you happen to have some platforms on Intel HW.
Goldmont was quite ahead in performance when it was released for Automotive compared to the then i.MX8 and Tegra T210 platforms.
Quite a shame it has been neglected.

Like I said before, this is a proper return to Tablet chips since they abandoned it with Broxton in 2015. You can do it with Core, but its very clunky. Tablets based on Core weigh much more while the subpar integration sacrifices battery size and design flexibility. Core addresses 13 inch-plus systems while Lakefield will go down to 8-10 inches like every other Tablet, or have a very portable clamshell.
Yeah, I remember those Dell Venue 7.

Quite a shame especially when you think about it since Google is releasing x86/amd64 Android builds much later than the arm64 versions considering the fact that most Android studio development were probably on x86. Ironic.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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@DisEnchantment I have to wonder why they did not offer it with Goldmont Plus? It doesn't have any embedded solutions at all.

Maybe we'll see automotive variants with Elkhart Lake.
 

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
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@DisEnchantment I have to wonder why they did not offer it with Goldmont Plus? It doesn't have any embedded solutions at all.
I think some T1s were not happy having no roadmap for future scaling up of their platform. Automotive SW is way more complex than Desktop or mobile applications. First of all there is so much lead time in Certifications, homologations etc. So many different laws and regulations in so many countries. Secondly, so many functionalities are always running concurrently at the same time, extreme multitasking.
Migrating HW platform means new Platform SW, new Board design, new qualifications and what not.
So they just continue to use existing Apollo Lake for industrialization across different vehicle lines but no further development. Automotive have very long Industrialization time. A vehicle lifespan can easily last 5-6 years and a single platform is usually reused across many vehicle models/car lines with minor refreshes over model years.
I can imagine it was difficult for Intel to find new customers.

Anyway this market is due for overhaul, almost every silicon vendor is showing up with their wares to solve the massive growth in Autonomous driving, cloud accelerated features, Location based services and such.
The dream is to pack a small "datacenter" in the vehicle in addition to the cloud infrastructure augmenting onboard services over 5G.
This round of reshuflling is happening right now and this market is one of the more exciting ones to watch with a radical mix of tech like AI, AR, 5G, IVI, ADAS and Cloud to name a few.
 
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Richie Rich

Senior member
Jul 28, 2019
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Slide 2


ALDER LAKE: 10nm Desktop Processor
TIGER LAKE: 10nm Core Mobile Processor
DG1: First Discrete Graphics Card based on Xe Architecture
ICE LAKE: 10nm Xeon Scalable Processor
SNOW RIDGE: First 5G-Ready 10nm SoC for Base Station
Alder Lake AKA Golden Cove at 10nm this year or begining next year?
Holy cow, that could be nice surprise like Core2Duo was and big problem for AMD in the same time.
 

Richie Rich

Senior member
Jul 28, 2019
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Read the rest of the thread, the slide was fake.
OK. But even H1of 2021 is still great for Golden Cove if 16c Zen3 will spread after new year (same delay for best binned silicon like Zen2 3950X). I'm afraid AMD could be in trouble if Zen3 is rumored +15% IPC jump only.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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OK. But even H1of 2021 is still great for Golden Cove if 16c Zen3 will spread after new year (same delay for best binned silicon like Zen2 3950X). I'm afraid AMD could be in trouble if Zen3 is rumored +15% IPC jump only.
Alder Lake is pretty likely not coming out until H1 22.
 
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uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
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OK. But even H1of 2021 is still great for Golden Cove if 16c Zen3 will spread after new year (same delay for best binned silicon like Zen2 3950X). I'm afraid AMD could be in trouble if Zen3 is rumored +15% IPC jump only.
No to all of that with the exception of 16c early 2021

Alder Lake is pretty likely not coming out until H1 22.
And no reason to believe that to be the case either for now.

H2 2021 is far, far more likely.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,659
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If Intel puts Alder Lake in 2022, that means Comet Meteor Lake in 2023?!?
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,659
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Comet Lake in 2023? You mean Meteor Lake?

Well, I wouldn't want to be Intel if all their 7nm products were to get pushed back a year.
Yeah meant Meteor. Sorry.

2023 would be 7nm pushed back two years. Enterprise Xe is supposed to be a 2021 product on 7nm after all.
 

Richie Rich

Senior member
Jul 28, 2019
470
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Alder Lake is pretty likely not coming out until H1 22.
For 2022 is planned Golden Cove at 7nm. It seems to me like products collision. It's more like a wish of AMD fan than a reasonable possibility. Much more probable is Alder Lake in 2021. Golden Cove uarch was originally planned for 2021 at 7nm so it must be ready to deploy at 10nm too.

Rocket Lake and Alder Lake share one common thing: they are using older process node than planned. IMHO these could be first visible Jim Keller's moves since he's in Intel for two years already. Preparing CPU at different node can take about two years. Also big+little concept of Alder Lake is close to his ARM background from Apple. Intel caught AMD unprepared once (Core2Duo vs. K8). It can happen again, especially with Keller on board ;)
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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They REALLY shouldn't even bother with RKL
Intel got a lot of flak for their lack of contingency plans for the 10nm fiasco. We criticized them for being too aggressive with the node, for not increasing core count sooner, for not back-porting sooner.

RKL is the safe approach. Safe equals some degree of redundacy. If they have something better at the time, it can be used as filler and faded away from the spotlight. If not, would you rather see Skylake Eternal Edition?
 
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