Intel and the future. Thank you Intel.

[Lonyo]

This will probably be mostly rambling, apologies, but I hope to have some nice discussion on the future of open technologies now that Intel is finally showing up to the party with Ivybridge and their future products.
Irrelevant fluff, feel free to skip:
I will say now I am not an expert on these things, I am a bog standard end user and not a coder or massive power user. I also plan to buy Ivybridge when it finally comes out for my desktop, and will pair it with my HD7950.
I also plan to buy a tablet before the end of the year, using whatever has the best format and good battery life (expecting it to be Ivybridge again, you might notice a small theme).
I also have an HTPC with Sandybridge based Pentium processor, equipped with an HD6450 to give actual video playback/etc capabilities (thanks Intel for making SB mediocre at graphics).

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphi...ts_Estimate_in_Q2_2011_After_Adjustments.html
It is a well known fact that Intel is #1 at graphics, and nowadays NV is #3 due to AMD's IGP/APUs.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5771/the-intel-ivy-bridge-core-i7-3770k-review/19
With Ivybridge, Intel has OpenCL 1.1 support in hardware, and we are waiting for software support.

With Intel finally showing like they might have some game, the open standards that AMD have (somewhat lazily) been "promoting" finally have more meaning.
We have had various discussions before on vendor specific vs open technologies, mostly focusing on NV (since they have more), and I have maintained that it is short sighted to want vendor specific technologies because of Intel (see: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=31022059&highlight=intel#post31022059, http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=29483479&highlight=intel#post29483479).

Here we have an announcement from AMD and Adobe about OpenGL and OpenCL support in Photoshop CS6:
http://blogs.amd.com/fusion/2012/04/24/adobe-and-amd-enable-brilliant-experiences/

Adobe is launching Adobe Premiere® Pro CS6 which now includes OpenCL™ accelerated features in the Mercury Playback engine as well as Adobe® Photoshop® CS6 with breakthrough performance enabled by industry-standards with OpenCL and OpenGL acceleration in the new Mercury Graphics Engine.

Then we have the bad:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5778/amd-launches-radeon-7700m-7800m-and-7900m-mobile-gpus/2
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/...-core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/8
Intel introduced QuickSync, which accelerates transcoding videos. AMD are looking to add something similar when they get some software support, and NV already have such technologies, but the problem is that typically they produce mediocre quality output and can't be customised.


If we have three vendors shipping in 100% of computers with architectures which all support the same open standard(s), such as OpenCL, maybe finally we will see some REAL development of acceleration of basic tasks, and the decline of vendor lock in technologies.
PhysX which ran on OpenCL could be used in any PC on the iGPU (since almost all CPUs going forward will have one), while the dGPU does the graphics, meaning everyone (with a modern PC) can benefit from the performance.

Now that Intel is bringing it, is anyone else super happy that we might see open technologies and faster adoption of OpenCL acceleration for tasks which it could have been used for over the last 5 years, if people had seen enough value?

Some people seem focused on the issue of whether, for instance, vendor specific coding (e.g. CUDA plugins for Photoshop) might be faster than OpenCL implementations.
Does it matter which is faster, if one has vastly greater support? 20% vs 100%?

With IvyBridge, a new age of software development may finally be born, and Haswell and future Intel CPUs could help develop it even further. The technologies that NV has been building into its GPUs for years, and AMD has also started to focus on, could possibly finally become useful to the public at large!

 

[tviceman]

I will refuse to support intel mobile products for lone fact that there are viable (and even better) alternatives, and Intel's dominance has created stagnation, IMO.

 

[Olikan]

i don't see that a good thing...

the problem will be beyond haswell and kaveri... beyond that, ddr4 will be mainstream, doubling the bandwidth...

if 4k monitors don't become mainstream there, most of the low-end discret cards will become irrelevant...and than snow ball everything

if nvidia stays how it is now, it will be out-of -market

 

[ShintaiDK]

Without 4K monitors etc. Discrete GFX is on the deathrow.

Also I think OpenCL is way overhyped, and the thread smells of that too. Its actual usage is relatively low. Specially since we also got DirectCompute with much better support. Just look at CUDA that can more than OpenCL. How much is that used?

OpenGL have also always been an outsider. It never really went anywhere.

So I dont think that there will be any difference from today. Adobe got alittle bit of OpenCL support...thats about that. But note it already had CUDA support.

 

[Stuka87]

All that graph shows is that Intel ships a graphics chip in every CPU. It has nothing to do with actual market share, as many of those systems will have discrete graphics chips in them.

If intel can get the open standards to be used more, that is great. As I am sick of games makers that utilize proprietary libraries because a certain company pays them too.

 

[tviceman]

if nvidia stays how it is now, it will be out-of -market

Nvidia is currently serving markets Intel has yet to enter: tablets and phones. Also, Nvidia has all the moment in high end computing. A few years ago everyone was tooting the "Nvidia is doomed in a few short years" horn. How's that working out?

If intel can get the open standards to be used more, that is great. As I am sick of games makers that utilize proprietary libraries because a certain company pays them too.

Intel needs a compelling product to do that first. Raising the bar on entry-level graphics performance isn't compelling.

 

[Lonyo]

Without 4K monitors etc. Discrete GFX is on the deathrow.

Also I think OpenCL is way overhyped, and the thread smells of that too. Its actual usage is relatively low. Specially since we also got DirectCompute with much better support. Just look at CUDA that can more than OpenCL. How much is that used?

OpenGL have also always been an outsider. It never really went anywhere.

So I dont think that there will be any difference from today. Adobe got alittle bit of OpenCL support...thats about that. But note it already had CUDA support.

That's the point. Currently it is low use, but when 100% of new sytems ship with OpenCL support, maybe we wil see more widspread use of it in things that people might care about.

And Intel has entered the phone market, and has been in the tablet market for years, just with crap chips. When Windows 8 hits, Intel will hit the tablet market in force with real computer tables.

 

[Meaker10]

Without 4K monitors etc. Discrete GFX is on the deathrow.

Also I think OpenCL is way overhyped, and the thread smells of that too. Its actual usage is relatively low. Specially since we also got DirectCompute with much better support. Just look at CUDA that can more than OpenCL. How much is that used?

OpenGL have also always been an outsider. It never really went anywhere.

So I dont think that there will be any difference from today. Adobe got alittle bit of OpenCL support...thats about that. But note it already had CUDA support.

APUs don't have the bandwidth required for 1080p gaming.

 

[blackened23]

APUs don't have the bandwidth required for 1080p gaming.

What percentage of laptop buyers make purchasing decisions based on gaming? I'd say most average people do productivity related things on laptops.

And if you want gaming you'd get a discrete graphics chip. HD4000 is more than enough for most laptop / ultrabook users. But again -- most laptop buyers don't
make a decision based on gaming.

 

[Lonyo]

What percentage of laptop buyers make purchasing decisions based on gaming? I'd say most average people do productivity related things on laptops.

And if you want gaming you'd get a discrete graphics chip. HD4000 is more than enough for most laptop / ultrabook users. But again -- most laptop buyers don't
make a decision based on gaming.

What percentage of laptops have 1080p displays would be a more relevant point.
Given that 90% of laptops (seriously) see to have 1366x768 displays, with half the pixels of 1080p, it's not that relevant whether APUs can handle 1080p or not.
When you hit discrete GPUs in cheap laptops, they are almost more likely to have a crappy resolution screen to in order to hit a price point with a discrete GPU.

 

[Meaker10]

Wait, you want screen resolutions to increase, so we need more power.

Also IVY-B has not even caught llano, let alone trinity.

In any case both of these are not even in the same continent as the 7970M.

Most notebooks with decent dedicated graphics now have higher res screens because the real cost difference to manufactures is a couple of quid and they don't want an advertisable feature to be worse than the others.

 

[ShintaiDK]

APUs don't have the bandwidth required for 1080p gaming.

Think future. DDR4, 256bit memory, possible onpackage memory.

 

[ShintaiDK]

That's the point. Currently it is low use, but when 100% of new sytems ship with OpenCL support, maybe we wil see more widspread use of it in things that people might care about.

And Intel has entered the phone market, and has been in the tablet market for years, just with crap chips. When Windows 8 hits, Intel will hit the tablet market in force with real computer tables.

The problem is we already had many years with CUDA and widely supported both in the enterprise via Telsa/Quadro and on the homeusage via Geforce cards. And what have we gotten? The limitation is the abilities of the GPUs. Something that cant really be fixed, because the fix would make them slow compared to CPUs.

Intel knows this, they know both CUDA and OpenCL is a niche. Intels product for the GPGPU area is MIC. And its a winner.

 

[Olikan]

Nvidia is currently serving markets Intel has yet to enter: tablets and phones. Also, Nvidia has all the moment in high end computing. A few years ago everyone was tooting the "Nvidia is doomed in a few short years" horn. How's that working out?

3% of market share, is painfull

well, nvidia whent from 2nd to 3rd overall gpu suplier, lost a monopoly in gaming cards, is losing market share in "pro" cards and lost all consoles...

now, remember... theyr tegra 3 is a bulldozer compared to krait, intel Larabe is going to rape any HPC card and the IGPs are stealing marketshare

so yeah, nvidia is slowly dying

DDR4, 256bit memory, possible onpackage memory.

with onpackage memory is possible 1024bit memory, easily

 

[Nintendesert]

Larrabee? Surely you're joking. I must have missed the sarcasm.

 

[Olikan]

Larrabee? Surely you're joking. I must have missed the sarcasm.

Gosh....i mean Knights Corner....aka larabe 2.0

 

[Stuka87]

Gosh....i mean Knights Corner....aka larabe 2.0

Knights Corner is not going to "Rape" anything in the HPC space...

 

[Jaydip]

Knights Corner is not going to "Rape" anything in the HPC space...

This.Just because the hardware looks impressive on paper means nothing,u need efficient software to take advantage of it.

 

[Obsoleet]

Mobile? Why wait for Intel to play catch up. Yes supposedly it's supposed to be this year, it's always this or next year. Intel makes nice desktop CPUs, and puts chips in POS laptops at your jobs.

If you want a mobile device just go with a damn iPad and have what Intel and Co are still just trying to match and get out the door. I see no reason to wait, best tablet is and will more than likely be the new iPad for the remainder of 2012.
Phone I use Android, but looking at alternatives.
Laptop I'd go with AMD, Llano+
Nvidia? Uninterested all around anymore. More in agreement in excitement about Intel developments, than NV and how much A5X is pounding on Tegra in sales and performance.

 

[Genx87]

3% of market share, is painfull

well, nvidia whent from 2nd to 3rd overall gpu suplier, lost a monopoly in gaming cards, is losing market share in "pro" cards and lost all consoles...

now, remember... theyr tegra 3 is a bulldozer compared to krait, intel Larabe is going to rape any HPC card and the IGPs are stealing marketshare

so yeah, nvidia is slowly dying



with onpackage memory is possible 1024bit memory, easily

It is amazing to me Nvidia has been slowly dying for years yet continues to expand.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Mobile? Why wait for Intel to play catch up. Yes supposedly it's supposed to be this year, it's always this or next year. Intel makes nice desktop CPUs, and puts chips in POS laptops at your jobs.

If you want a mobile device just go with a damn iPad and have what Intel and Co are still just trying to match and get out the door. I see no reason to wait, best tablet is and will more than likely be the new iPad for the remainder of 2012.
Phone I use Android, but looking at alternatives.
Laptop I'd go with AMD, Llano+
Nvidia? Uninterested all around anymore. More in agreement in excitement about Intel developments, than NV and how much A5X is pounding on Tegra in sales and performance.

profane comment deleted

 

[Olikan]

This.Just because the hardware looks impressive on paper means nothing,u need efficient software to take advantage of it.

that's exacly it's good point, x86 baby...

It is amazing to me Nvidia has been slowly dying for years yet continues to expand.

...nvidia is almost half to what it used to be...

 

[Genx87]

that's exacly it's good point, x86 baby...




...nvidia is almost half to what it used to be...

Half of what?

 

[Olikan]

Half of what?

market share

 

[Jaydip]

Half market share?Their market share declined because of the exit from the motherboard business.In the discreet front they are doing very well.