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Intel Allegedly Playing Dirty To Undercut AMD’s Ryzen

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100+ attorneys at @750/hr plus expenses for a decade. Add in the risk factor of losing and you decide to settle.

Remember the other side of coin - AMD also settled. If their case was strong why not keep going? There were people on this board touting AMD was going to get $60B from Intel. And yet AMD settled for 2% of that.

Patent infringement claims from Intel to AMD. And also patent infringements claims as counter lawsuits from AMD to Intel. AMD just did not have the money for more patent lawsuits for years to come.
This later became the cross licensing agreement if i am not mistaken.
 
Here is the context of the conversation you replied to.



I said it was untrue.

Yes, I know the context. Yes, a lot businesses enter into exclusivity agreements. And, yes, as I've told you, it usually isn't illegal.


Yet, the Clayton Act clearly establishes that the act regardless of impact is illegal. Why you think it has to be substantial is irrelevant because its explicit in the language already provided.

No it doesn't. Did you read anything I just provided you? Are you trying to convince me that the Supreme Court of the United States is wrong? If all your trying to say is that price-fixing is per se illegal, then I agree with you. I concede that point. You win, to the extent there is anything to win. But the same isn't true for exclusivity agreements, so says SCOTUS.
 
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100+ attorneys at @750/hr plus expenses for a decade. Add in the risk factor of losing and you decide to settle.

Remember the other side of coin - AMD also settled. If their case was strong why not keep going? There were people on this board touting AMD was going to get $60B from Intel. And yet AMD settled for 2% of that.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics involved in trying to minimize or downplay Intel's anti-competitive practices. There is no question Intel was doing shady things with kickbacks and contra-revenue which at a minimum are highly unethical and anti-competitive.

Why AMD agreed to the settlement offer from Intel is a separate matter. In my opinion, seeing as how they were almost bankrupt (they literally destroyed $65M worth of CPUs rather than selling them just to avoid killing their own margins!) AMD simply could not afford to continue the money burn against Intel's army of attorneys. So they took the advice of counsel and settled. Apparently, Intel is still trying to avoid paying out that settlement years later.
 
Yes, I know the context. Yes, a lot businesses enter into exclusivity agreements. And, yes, as I've told you, it usually isn't illegal.




No it doesn't. Did you read anything I just provided to? Are you trying to convince me that the Supreme Court of the United States is wrong? If all your trying to say is that price-fixing is per se illegal, then I agree with you. I concede that point. You win, to the extent there is anything to win. But the same isn't true for exclusivity agreements, so says SCOTUS.

SCOTUS? You linked to the American Bar Association. In your link it also said this.

Specifically, exclusive dealing arrangements have been challenged under four provisions of the United States antitrust laws: (1) Section 1 of the Sherman Act, which prohibits contracts “in restraint of trade”[1]; (2) Section 2 of the Sherman Act, which prohibits “attempt to monopolize” and monopolization[2]; (3) Section 3 of the Clayton Act, which prohibits exclusivity arrangements that may "substantially lessen competition” or tend to create a monopoly[3]; and (4) section 5 of the FTC Act, which prohibits "nfair methods of competition."[4]


It does not just apply to substantially lessened competition.
 
The settlement was paid in 2009.

How about we talk about what's happening today, instead of stuff from a decade ago.

More minimization and deflection. Intel is still trying to overturn that settlement almost a decade later.

Re: today
Many will be watching like hawks for even a hint of impropriety after Intel's rumored return to its old tricks. They won't get away with it this time.
 
More minimization and deflection. Intel is still trying to overturn that settlement almost a decade later.

What in the world are you talking about? They agreed and now they are fighting what they agreed to?

Like I said, AMD was paid in 2009 and all litigation was ended.

I did some Googling, and I see where you are getting your information from. Your source is wrong, they are confusing the US and EC cases.

Rather than attacking me get your facts strait.
 
What in the world are you talking about? They agreed and now they are fighting what they agreed to?

Like I said, AMD was paid in 2009 and all litigation was ended.

I did some Googling, and I see where you are getting your information from. Your source is wrong, they are confusing the US and EC cases.

Rather than attacking me get your facts strait.

I was referencing the European Commission case, while you assumed I was talking about the US one. In any event, you can see my source on post #100:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rd-1-2-billion-antitrust-fine-at-top-eu-court

Intel Corp. attacked the European Commission for being unfair in a probe that led to a record 1.06 billion-euro ($1.2 billion) fine.

The key issue in the investigation was loyalty rebates to lower retail prices, Daniel Beard, a lawyer for Intel, told the European Union’s Court of Justice in Luxembourg on Tuesday. But the European Commission failed to analyze “all relevant circumstances” to see if the rebates shut out rivals, he said.

The world’s biggest chipmaker is making a final attempt to overturn the penalty doled out in 2009 for unfairly squeezing out Advanced Micro Devices Inc. No date for a ruling has been set.

Article date:
June 21, 2016, 11:43 AM EDT
 
SCOTUS? You linked to the American Bar Association. In your link it also said this.



It does not just apply to substantially lessened competition.

Ugh, the ABA cited to SCOTUS decisions. If you insist - here:

Since § 3 of the Clayton Act was directed to prohibiting specific practices even though not covered by the broad terms of the Sherman Act, [Footnote 4] it is appropriate to consider first whether the enjoined contracts fall within the prohibition of the narrower Act. The relevant provisions of § 3 are:

"It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, to lease or make a sale or contract for sale of goods, wares, merchandise, machinery, supplies, or other commodities, whether patented or unpatented, for use, consumption, or resale within the United States . . . on the condition, agreement, or understanding that the lessee or purchaser thereof shall not use or deal in the goods . . . of a competitor or competitors of the . . . seller, where the effect of such lease, sale, or contract for sale or such condition, agreement, or understanding may be to substantially lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce."

Obviously the contracts here at issue would be proscribed if § 3 stopped short of the qualifying clause beginning, "where the effect of such lease, sale, or contract for sale. . . ." If effect is to be given that clause, however, it is by no means obvious, in view of Standard's minority share of the "line of commerce" involved, of the fact that that share has not recently increased, and of the claims of these contracts to economic utility, that the effect of the contracts may be to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly. It is the qualifying clause therefore which must be construed.
* * *

"Section 3 condemns sales or agreements where the effect of such sale or contract of sale 'may' be to substantially lessen competition or tend to create monopoly. . . . But we do not think that the purpose in using the word 'may' was to prohibit the mere possibility of the consequences described. It was intended to prevent such agreements as would, under the circumstances disclosed, probably lessen competition, or create an actual tendency to monopoly."
* * *

It is thus apparent that none of these cases controls the disposition of the present appeal, for Standard's share of the retail market for gasoline, even including sales through company-owned stations, is hardly large enough to conclude as a matter of law that it occupies a dominant position, nor did the trial court so find. The cases do indicate, however, that some sort of showing as to the actual or probable economic consequences of the agreements, if only the inferences to be drawn from the fact of dominant power, is important, and, to that extent, they tend to support appellant's position.
* * *

We conclude, therefore, that the qualifying clause of § 3 is satisfied by proof that competition has been foreclosed in a substantial share of the line of commerce affected. It cannot be gainsaid that observance by a dealer of his requirements contract with Standard does effectively foreclose whatever opportunity there might be for competing suppliers to attract his patronage, and it is clear that the affected proportion of retail sales of petroleum products is substantial. In view of the widespread adoption of such contracts by Standard's competitors and the availability of alternative ways of obtaining an assured market, evidence that competitive activity has not actually declined is inconclusive. Standard's use of the contracts creates just such a potential clog on competition as it was the purpose of § 3 to remove wherever, were it to become actual, it would impede a substantial amount of competitive activity.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/337/293/case.html
 
I was referencing the European Commission case, while you assumed I was talking about the US one. In any event, you can see my source on post #100:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rd-1-2-billion-antitrust-fine-at-top-eu-court



Article date:

It is a matter of terminology. Intel isn't trying to overturn a settlement. Intel is trying to overturn a fine. These are different things. A settlement is agreement between parties to resolve a litigation. A fine is a decision made by a governing body to extract a monetary penalty. Settlements aren't generally appealable, though they do from time to time get litigated when the parties disagree on the terms of the settlement.
 
I was referencing the European Commission case, while you assumed I was talking about the US one. In any event, you can see my source on post #100:

Then why are you saying Intel hasn't paid AMD yet? AMD isn't a party to the EU case.

Also, Intel has paid the fine from the EU case into an escrow account as required by law. Of course Intel is fighting the fine in the court system, wouldn't you? Are you saying Intel shouldn't partake of the protections of law afforded to them?
 
So only if Intel admits guilt would you consider them guilty?

Where did I say that? Go back over my posts and read them again. What I said was no court has found Intel guilty of violating anti-trust laws. Pay attention.

From the FTC:
NOTE: A consent agreement is for settlement purposes only and does not constitute an admission of a law violation.
 
Where did I say that?

IIRC you said in a post that Intel never admitted guilt and said something along the lines of its cheaper to settle than go to court.

I didn't quote your right reply it seems. I still don't understand this forum quoting/replying.
 
And you cant see the phrase " or tend to create a monopoly" used over and over. The activity does not need to be " substantially lessen competition". I'm just not sure what else to say here.

I do see it. It is a qualifying clause, as identified by SCOTUS. It means that not every exclusivity agreement is illegal, only those that "substantially lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly." The test for either side of the clause is basically the same. Further, if every exclusivity agreement was illegal (as you've suggested) there would have been no need for SCOTUS's discussion on market position or competition.

Ok, one more source, the department of justice:

Exclusive dealing describes an arrangement whereby one party's willingness to deal with another is contingent upon that other party (1) dealing with it exclusively or (2) purchasing a large share of its requirements from it.(1)

Exclusive dealing is common and can take many forms.(2) It often requires a buyer to deal exclusively with a seller. For example, a manufacturer may agree to deal with a distributor only if the distributor agrees not to carry the products of the manufacturer's competitors.(3) And many franchise outlets agree to buy certain products exclusively from a franchisor.(4) But it also may involve a seller dealing exclusively with a single buyer.

Exclusive dealing is frequently procompetitive, as when it enables manufacturers and retailers to overcome free-rider issues misaligning the incentives for these vertically-related firms to satisfy the demands of consumers most efficiently. For example, a manufacturer may be unwilling to train its distributors optimally if distributors can take that training and use it to sell products of the manufacturer's rivals. Other benefits can occur as well, as when an exclusivity arrangement assures a customer of a steady stream of a necessary input.

But exclusive dealing also can be anticompetitive in some circumstances. For example, exclusive dealing may allow one manufacturer, in effect, to monopolize efficient distribution services and thereby prevent its rivals from competing effectively. As then-Judge Breyer explained, exclusive dealing can harm consumers by thwarting entry or inhibiting the growth of existing rivals:

Exclusive dealing arrangements may sometimes be found unreasonable under the antitrust laws because they may place enough outlets, or sources of supply, in the hands of a single firm (or small group of firms) to make it difficult for new, potentially competing firms to penetrate the market. To put the matter more technically, the arrangements may "foreclose" outlets or supplies to potential entrants, thereby raising entry barriers. Higher entry barriers make it easier for existing firms to exploit whatever power they have to raise prices above the competitive level because they have less to fear from potential new entrants.(6)
 
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I do see it. It is a qualifying clause, as identified by SCOTUS. It means that not every exclusivity agreement is illegal, only those that "substantially lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly." The test for either side of the clause is basically the same. Further, if every exclusivity agreement was illegal (as you've suggested) there would have been no need for SCOTUS's discussion on market position or competition.

I'm sorry, I'm done. I'm just trying to educate the board on the law, not argue the merits of the case against Intel.

No, that is also untrue. The test for tending to create a monopoly could come from a company that currently does not represent a monopoly power in the market. I have also not said that exclusivity agreements are inherently illegal. What I said is that the size of the impact and or company does not establish the activity as legal. It can, but its also not the only way to decide what is illegal.
 
If Intel does something shady, and they may, it will be with the OEM's. The current rumors are a bit on the thin side for me though. They've been shady before, so doing it again isn't out of the realm of possibility. In 4-5 months look and see how many big OEM's are using Ryzen for a *possible* clue of it. And then look again a few months after Naples is released.
 
No, that is also untrue. The test for tending to create a monopoly could come from a company that currently does not represent a monopoly power in the market. I have also not said that exclusivity agreements are inherently illegal. What I said is that the size of the impact and or company does not establish the activity as legal. It can, but its also not the only way to decide what is illegal.

I never said the company had to already be a monopoly. But you have repeatedly suggested that all exclusive arrangements were illegal and that size of the company was irrelevant:

It is illegal, its just that small companies cant do it in a meaningful way. Further, its also not worth the governments time to go after small illegal activity.

That statement is false. The size of the actor is not important in determining if the activity was illegal or legal.

Yet, the Clayton Act clearly establishes that the act regardless of impact is illegal. Why you think it has to be substantial is irrelevant because its explicit in the language already provided.

The only thing I was doing was addressing that inaccuracy. I was not trying to provide you every element of the test nor every way a company could run afoul of the law. My point is simple: (1) not every exclusivity arrangement is illegal, most aren't; and (2) the size of the company is a probative factor (but not the only factor) in determining whether an agreement violates the law.

That's it. Obviously there was some miscommunication as you appear to now concede both points above. If you understood that the whole time, I apologize. It was not clear from your posts and I wanted to educate the board.
 
The settlement was paid in 2009.

How about we talk about what's happening today, instead of stuff from a decade ago.

No it's not, as the case is still under litigation.

You just openly contradicted yourself! Litigation is still ongoing yet you claim its all from a decade ago and ancient history!
Ok, so Intel is guilty because they settled, and AMD isn't because they settled. Ok, whatever floats your boat man.

Again, what did AMD settle on? AMD was the plaintiff!
 
Again, what did AMD settle on? AMD was the plaintiff!

From the settlement agreement: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/50863/000005086309000213/exh101.htm

3.GF Dispute. On or about March 9, 2009, AMD closed a transaction with Advanced Technology Investment Company “ATIC” through which, among other actions, ATIC and AMD created a venture called GLOBALFOUNDRIES (“GF”), transferred AMD’s wafer manufacturing operations to GF, and claimed that GF was a subsidiary as defined under a January 1, 2001 Intel/AMD patent cross-license, and as such, entitled to rights thereunder. Intel claims that various aspects of this transaction have breached the Intel/AMD patent cross-license. Intel also has advised AMD and GF that by using, manufacturing, selling, offering to sell and/or importing products utilizing Intel’s patented inventions without a license, AMD and GF are each infringing certain of Intel’s patents. In response, AMD has accused Intel of breaching that patent cross-license.

Fairly weak in the grand scheme of things, but it is there. Also, just from a legal perspective, both parties settled, not just Intel. I agree though that beyond the above there wasn't much indication that AMD was being accused of anything.
 
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