Insurers dropping policies on houses that have Chinese made drywall

BriGy86

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Sep 10, 2004
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200..._us/us_chinese_drywall

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. ? James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked their insurer for help ? and not only was their claim denied, but they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed. Thousands of homeowners nationwide who bought new houses constructed from the defective building materials are finding their hopes dashed, their lives in limbo. And experts warn that cases like the Ivorys', in which insurers drop policies or send notices of non-renewal based on the presence of the Chinese drywall, will become rampant as insurance companies process the hundreds of claims currently in the pipeline. At least three insurers have already canceled or refused to renew policies after homeowners sought their help replacing the bad wallboard. Because mortgage companies require homeowners to insure their properties, they are then at risk of foreclosure, yet no law prevents the cancellations. "This is like the small wave that's out on the horizon that's going to continue to grow and grow until it becomes a tsunami," said Florida attorney David Durkee, who represents hundreds of homeowners who are suing builders, suppliers and manufacturers over the drywall. "This is going to become critical mass very shortly." During the height of the U.S. housing boom, with building materials in short supply, American construction companies imported millions of pounds of Chinese-made drywall because it was abundant and cheap. An Associated Press analysis of shipping records found that more than 500 million pounds of Chinese gypsum board was imported between 2004 and 2008 ? enough to have built tens of thousands of homes. They are heavily concentrated in the Southeast, especially Florida. The defective materials have since been found by state and federal agencies to emit "volatile sulfur compounds," and contain traces of strontium sulfide, which can produce a rotten-egg odor, along with organic compounds not found in American-made drywall. Homeowners complain the fumes are corroding copper pipes, destroying TVs and air conditioners, and blackening jewelry and silverware. Some believe the wallboard is also making them ill. The federal government is studying the problem and considering some sort of relief for homeowners. Meanwhile, the AP interviewed several homeowners who, like the Ivorys, were unlucky enough to purchase properties built with Chinese drywall, and are now being hit with a second and third wave of bad news: Their insurers are declining to fill their claims, then canceling the policy or issuing notices that policies won't be renewed until the problem is fixed. The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall. In each instance, the insurer learned of the drywall through a claim filed by the homeowner seeking financial help with its removal. The Ivorys have sued, but it could take months for their case and hundreds like it to work their way through the courts. In the meantime, they have moved back to Colorado because their three-bedroom ranch home two miles from the Gulf of Mexico is unlivable and soon will be uninsured. "It's been an emotional roller-coaster," said James Ivory, who is still making mortgage payments on the house. "It was all in our heads, nice weather down there, calm life, beaches. Now I don't know what to do." John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the policy unless the problem is fixed. "If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We provide insurance, not warranty service." Citizens, a last-resort insurer backed by the state of Florida for people who can't find affordable coverage elsewhere, has received 23 claims about Chinese drywall, and has so far denied five. Citizens could not immediately say how many policies had been canceled or not renewed because of the drywall. Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute, agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty, inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials. Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation, said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese drywall. "We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said. Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained undisclosed Chinese drywall. "If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said. A newly married couple in Hallandale Beach, Fla., saved up for five years to buy their first home only to later discover it had Chinese drywall. They filed a claim with their insurer, Universal Insurance Co. of North America, and were denied. Universal then sent the couple a letter, stating their policy was being dropped because "the dwelling was built with Chinese drywall." The couple then signed on with Citizens, but didn't divulge the drywall issue, and hasn't filed another claim. The 31-year-old man requested anonymity because he's afraid of losing his insurance policy, and thus his home. "I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened," he said. "All this has basically taken us back five years. We saved money to buy this home." Universal did not respond to requests for comment. Louisiana lawyer Daniel Becnel Jr., who represents more than 200 owners of homes containing Chinese drywall, is advising his clients to avoid filing claims with their insurers or they could lose their houses. "I really believe everybody should have an insurance claim with this," Becnel said. "But it's hard to tell somebody to go make a claim, then they lose their policy ... This is a nightmare for people." "I tell people flat out if you file, you may lose your insurance," agreed Mississippi attorney Steve Mullins, who has about 100 clients with Chinese drywall in their homes. One of Mullins' clients, Chris Whitfield, a 29-year-old tire repairman in Picayune, Miss., says he moved out of his house because the drywall was making his family sick. His claim was then denied by his insurer, Nationwide, which followed up with notice that he would be dropped because his policy didn't cover unoccupied dwellings. Nationwide spokeswoman Liz Christopher declined to comment on Whitfield's case and could not say how many drywall claims had been submitted or how many policies had been canceled or not renewed. Whitfield offered to move back into the house, but he said he was told he'd first have to replace the drywall. "I don't know what I'm going to do," he said.

From my experience most city governments require permits for anything done to a house that is bigger than changing a lightbulb... Should a home inspection have caught this? In my City before a house is sold a city inspector has to check it out. Same goes for projects that people actually pulled permits for. Once the work is done it has to be inspected.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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At what point in time was the drywall considered bad?

Why would any inspection have a justification to reject anything installed prior to the notice?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: BriGy86

From my experience most city governments require permits for anything done to a house that is bigger than changing a lightbulb... Should a home inspection have caught this? In my City before a house is sold a city inspector has to check it out. Same goes for projects that people actually pulled permits for. Once the work is done it has to be inspected.

I think most home inspectors don't rip down the drywall. BTW, this is why insurance is retarded, it's not a social safety net, it's a for profit business, and it will drop you or otherwise fail when you need it the most.
 

BriGy86

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
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I suppose you could go after the building contractor for using substandard and dangerous materials.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I think we need universal home insurance. Might as well through autos in there too.
No one should go bankrupt because they can't afford insurance on their McMansion! Nobody should be required to drive cars without leather seats because they were dropped by their auto insurer!

If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day!

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I think we need universal home insurance. Might as well through autos in there too.
No one should go bankrupt because they can't afford insurance on their McMansion! Nobody should be required to drive cars without leather seats because they were dropped by their auto insurer!

If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day!

YES WE CAN!!!!
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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You cant go after contractors because normally you only have like 60 days to 6 months to file a claim against contractors. You would have to go after the developers, or the entitiy that actually owned and sold the property. This is just one more reason to ban import of all goods from China.

The contractor will then go after someone else like the supplier. The entity that sold the bad product will be in trouble also. This could be like a motherboard company selling motherboards with bad capacitors.

This kind of case is similar to the cases we use to see about Asbestos. The house could end up being condemned and not usable until some special company goes in to gut the house and clean it out. This is bad news for all involved.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
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I can't say I entirely disagree with the insurance companies though. Why should THEY be held responsible for the screwup of the builders/developers etc?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Normally if you dont pay your insurance, your bank would take out an insurance contract on the building to cover their exposure, then bill the homeowner. One way to handlw this would be to just default.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I can't say I entirely disagree with the insurance companies though. Why should THEY be held responsible for the screwup of the builders/developers etc?
Right. Why should they have to provide the service they're actually being paid for?

That's prepostrous, not to mention draconian!

(That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't blindingly obvious...)
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
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Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I can't say I entirely disagree with the insurance companies though. Why should THEY be held responsible for the screwup of the builders/developers etc?
Right. Why should they have to provide the service they're actually being paid for?

That's prepostrous, not to mention draconian!

(That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't blindingly obvious...)

Did you read the (wall of) text?? If there's a defective part in a car that causes half of them to blow up, is it up to the car insurance to pay, or should the manufacturer pay for defective merchandise/design? Guess what, I'll go ahead and answer that for you, as has already been established: the insurance company doesn't have to pay, and there's nothing that says they are somehow forced to renew or keep policies on these homes either.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
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Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I can't say I entirely disagree with the insurance companies though. Why should THEY be held responsible for the screwup of the builders/developers etc?
Right. Why should they have to provide the service they're actually being paid for?

That's prepostrous, not to mention draconian!

(That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't blindingly obvious...)

Did you read the (wall of) text?? If there's a defective part in a car that causes half of them to blow up, is it up to the car insurance to pay, or should the manufacturer pay for defective merchandise/design? Guess what, I'll go ahead and answer that for you, as has already been established: the insurance company doesn't have to pay, and there's nothing that says they are somehow forced to renew or keep policies on these homes either.

It has become increasingly obvious lately that most people do not know what insurance is actually for or how it works.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
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Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Did you read the (wall of) text?? If there's a defective part in a car that causes half of them to blow up, is it up to the car insurance to pay, or should the manufacturer pay for defective merchandise/design?
I did read, even though it almost killed my eyes.

Anyway... The manufacturer will pay only during the car's warranty period, after that... Well, that's what you have insurance for.

If you take out home insurance, and your home burns to the ground in a fire, would you be satisfied if the insurance company suddenly goes, "well WE didn't start the blaze, so why should we have to pay! We're not gonna, nuh-uh!"
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Did you read the (wall of) text?? If there's a defective part in a car that causes half of them to blow up, is it up to the car insurance to pay, or should the manufacturer pay for defective merchandise/design?
I did read, even though it almost killed my eyes.

Anyway... The manufacturer will pay only during the car's warranty period, after that... Well, that's what you have insurance for.

If you take out home insurance, and your home burns to the ground in a fire, would you be satisfied if the insurance company suddenly goes, "well WE didn't start the blaze, so why should we have to pay! We're not gonna, nuh-uh!"

Originally posted by: Ronstang

It has become increasingly obvious lately that most people do not know what insurance is actually for or how it works.

 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Did you read the (wall of) text?? If there's a defective part in a car that causes half of them to blow up, is it up to the car insurance to pay, or should the manufacturer pay for defective merchandise/design?
I did read, even though it almost killed my eyes.

Anyway... The manufacturer will pay only during the car's warranty period, after that... Well, that's what you have insurance for.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you are at least partially wrong on that one. If you can demonstrate a design flaw or product defect, you can sue the manufacturer. That's one of the reasons car makers recall vehicles well beyond their warranty period if there's a defect in the design or product.

Things do get into a little bit of a gray area in terms of denying existing claims, which is why (according to the text) some of the claims are denied and others are not. It depends on the policy and the circumstances. However, dropping of policies and non-renewal of policies is a sure thing, it makes no sense for an insurance company to underwrite a policy that is virtually guaranteed to result in large losses.

Originally posted by: Ronstang
It has become increasingly obvious lately that most people do not know what insurance is actually for or how it works.

Indeed. If you read through the health care threads, you see a myriad of posts of people who think insurance is there to pay your bills, rather than a mechanism to reduce risk and as coverage for certain events. If, for example, you have a pre-existing condition, it makes no sense for the insurance company to underwrite you at the regular premium, because the expenses are an expectation, not a risk scenario.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: FaaR

snip ... The manufacturer will pay only during the car's warranty period, after that... Well, that's what you have insurance for.

If you take out home insurance, and your home burns to the ground in a fire, would you be satisfied if the insurance company suddenly goes, "well WE didn't start the blaze, so why should we have to pay! We're not gonna, nuh-uh!"

My word, there is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. In fact, ...
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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Who's at fault? The Chinese manufacturer for making it and the Federal Government for once again not doing their jobs by keeping dangerous products out of the country. Proving once again that the Feds can't find their asses with both hands, so let's give them more power, more authority and more money so they can prove again it with our health care.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Don't worry- mortgage lenders will find a way to make lemonade out of lemons, like arranging for the mandatory insurance at ridiculous rates, declaring borrowers in default if they won't pay...

The beauty of the whole thing, for banks, is that they aren't actually holding the mortgages- they're just servicing them. Investors eat the losses through the marvellous mechanism of securitization, while the servicers fatten their bottom line with inflated foreclosure fees against the securitization mechanism, rather than just getting the usual cut for servicing... In the short run, banks make more money on foreclosures than servicing, and that's all they really care about...

If the servicer actually holds a particular mortgage, they'll behave differently, of course... that being the exception to the rule...

The whole thing may just be another tempest in a teapot, a scam from insurors facilitated by a few claims. None of the articles I've found explain the mechanism whereby the drywall emits sulfurous fumes, and it seems unlikely that it will do so forever...
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: Blackjack200
Originally posted by: BriGy86

From my experience most city governments require permits for anything done to a house that is bigger than changing a lightbulb... Should a home inspection have caught this? In my City before a house is sold a city inspector has to check it out. Same goes for projects that people actually pulled permits for. Once the work is done it has to be inspected.

I think most home inspectors don't rip down the drywall. BTW, this is why insurance is retarded, it's not a social safety net, it's a for profit business, and it will drop you or otherwise fail when you need it the most.

Insurance does not cover defects in workmanship. You're not buying a warranty on your house. They are well within their rights to drop these homeowners (however "wrong" that may be)

These homeowners are getting the shaft. The Chinese companies don't care. I guess they can sue whoever imported/distributed these and the home builders (if they are still around). Either way they are screwed. People should just boycott Chinese products.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,347
2,710
136
Originally posted by: FaaR
I did read, even though it almost killed my eyes.

Anyway... The manufacturer will pay only during the car's warranty period, after that... Well, that's what you have insurance for.

If you take out home insurance, and your home burns to the ground in a fire, would you be satisfied if the insurance company suddenly goes, "well WE didn't start the blaze, so why should we have to pay! We're not gonna, nuh-uh!"


last time i checked, auto insurance only covers wrecks, not maintance, that comes out of your pocket. Just try to claim a new set of tires or an alternator.

Home insurance is suppose to cover things like fire, tree branches hitting your house, maybe a lightning strike and the like. If you have a house with the bad sheetrock, sue the people you bought the home from. Like the builder or deveoper.