Institute of Medicine: CBO estimate wrong, healthcare reform can save $250B a year after 10 years

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...70001&sid=a09dX4NiJ714

Somehow i doubt conservatives will cite this report, even though they were rabid in support of the CBO report. To think the CBO report didn't include savings from electronic medical records is ridiculous.

The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

Sept. 15 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. can cut health-care spending by $250 billion a year within a decade, a congressionally chartered panel will say this month in a bid to show costs can be contained even if all Americans are insured.

A report from the Institute of Medicine, which advises the federal government on health care, will counter ?stingy? estimates from the Congressional Budget Office, said Arnold Milstein, planning chairman of the institute?s working group on health costs. The panel?s annual figure is five times the amount the budget office says the U.S. will save under a bill in the House of Representatives, according to the budget office?s July 17 letter to House Ways and Means Committee chairman Charles Rangel.


The preliminary findings from the institute, part of the National Academies in Washington, will be issued amid a growing debate over the health-care overhaul proposals that President Barack Obama is urging Congress to pass. The report will help bolster the argument that covering the nation?s 46 million uninsured won?t bust the budget, advocates of the bill say.

?The institute will make it very clear that we are right,? said Senator Benjamin Cardin, a Maryland Democrat who backs health legislation because he says it will save money. ?It gives us the lift we need and the encouragement to say, ?We?re right to do this.??

The report, which hasn?t been completed yet, was disclosed in interviews with Milstein, institute senior scholar Michael McGinnis, and David Walker, president of the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, which is funding the organization?s research.

?Big Differences?

The working group plans to release a preliminary version to ensure its findings contribute to the debate in Congress, Milstein said. That report is expected by about Sept. 20, McGinnis said, with a more comprehensive paper to follow.

?I think the Institute of Medicine report will garner a lot of attention,? said David Brailer, a peer reviewer on the study who was former President George W. Bush?s top adviser on health-care information technology. ?There will be big differences on the magnitude of real near-term savings.?

Budget office spokeswoman Melissa Merson didn?t return calls seeking comment.

The working group?s recommendations will cover a broad range of changes, Walker said. The panel asked dozens of experts to prepare case studies about how leading hospitals and insurance companies have saved money, said Walker, a former U.S. comptroller general.

The report is likely to reflect those cost-saving ideas, presented at three workshops in May, July and September, Walker said. Proposed solutions include simplifying medical billing forms, letting Medicare buy equipment at auction and rewarding doctors based on the quality of care, he said.

Killer Costs

?The whole objective is to have comprehensive health-care reform, but we have to control costs first because costs are going to kill the country,? Walker said.

The working group is seeking ways to cut costs in the $2.5 trillion U.S. health-care industry by at least 10 percent by 2019, Milstein said. The savings target will rise higher than $250 billion to keep up with inflation in the broader economy, Milstein said. The budget office said July 17 that proposals to extend insurance coverage may cost as much as $1.6 trillion over 10 years.

The nonprofit Institute of Medicine was chartered by Congress in 1970 to provide scientific, evidence-based advice to the government, according to its Web site. The National Academies gather independent panels of volunteer experts to make policy recommendations in their respective disciplines.

Differing Approaches

The institute took a more comprehensive approach to cost containment than the Congressional Budget Office, said Paul Ginsburg, president of the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonpartisan policy-research group in Washington.

The largest chunk of savings in the budget office?s analysis of the health-insurance bill pending in the House of Representatives came from Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries switching to other insurance, according to the letter to Rangel.

?The Institute of Medicine is looking at much bolder cost- containment measures than have been given to the Congressional Budget Office to analyze,? Ginsburg said.

About a third of the savings to be outlined in the institute?s report will go to the federal government, Milstein said. The cuts won?t hurt quality or innovation, he said.

The government pays for almost a third of U.S. health care, providing Medicare coverage for the elderly, the federal share of Medicaid coverage for poor families that is also partly paid for by states, and a children?s health-insurance program targeting families with incomes as high as $64,085 for a family of three.

Other Beneficiaries

The rest of the savings would benefit private insurance companies, health-care providers and consumers, McGinnis said.

Medicare can cut costs by buying equipment at auction, one study proposes. The agency saved 26 percent in a pilot test of auctions before Congress suspended the program, Mark Wynn, senior adviser at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services in Baltimore, said in a May 22 presentation. Medicare spends about $10 billion a year on such equipment, including hospital beds and wheelchairs, Wynn said.

Insurers may save $109 billion over 10 years by accelerating the use of electronic payments and related technologies, David Wichmann, executive vice president at Minnetonka, Minnesota-based UnitedHealth Group Inc., the largest private U.S. health insurer, said in May.

Monthly Statements

An additional $14 billion could be cut if insurers substituted monthly statements for ?explanation of benefits? forms on each claim, he said.

Other recommendations may focus on paying doctors and hospitals based on the quality of care, instead of rewarding doctors for performing more tests and procedures, according to John Rother, executive vice president of policy at AARP, formerly the American Association of Retired Persons.

?The focus is on changing incentives,? Rother said.

Those inducements may include Medicare bonuses for hospitals? daily rates if patients do well after being discharged, or creating pools of money not tied to specific tests to cover preventive care, Rother said in an interview.

The Institute of Medicine?s report may not convince Congress that the budget office?s estimates are wrong, said Gail Shearer, director of health-policy analysis at Consumers Union and a member of the institute?s planning committee. Whether Congress will pass health-care legislation with the budget office?s estimated price tag ?will come down to political will,? she said.

Poor Record

Advocates of Obama?s health-care proposals have argued the budget office?s track record is poor in predicting health costs. The office overestimated the cost of Medicare prescription-drug coverage by 35 percent when it was proposed in 2003, and missed more than half of the effects of reimbursement cuts passed as part of the Balanced Budget Act in 1997, Clinton administration Medicare director Bruce Vladeck said in an interview.

?The Congressional Budget Office is always wrong,? Vladeck said. ?The CBO systematically underestimates savings, so we cut twice as much in 1997 as we needed to balance the budget.?

The budget office has disappointed supporters of a health- care overhaul by refusing to count savings from initiatives such as subsidizing adoption of electronic medical records, Obama said July 1 at a gathering at Northern Virginia Community College in Annandale.

Patient Records

?The CBO can?t identify how much money it will save, even though everyone believes it will be a lot,? the president said.

The government has been trying since early this decade to link computerized patient records into a nationwide network that would let researchers identify the most cost-effective treatments, eliminate duplication of tests and avoid medical errors from adverse drug interactions, Brailer said.


The budget office estimated that wide adoption of electronic medical records would save no more than $5.4 billion a year, according to a Jan. 21 letter to Rangel. The Boston- based Center for Information Technology Leadership, a nonprofit arm of Harvard University-affiliated Partners HealthCare, estimated $77.8 billion in annual savings.


 

ElFenix

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Mar 20, 2000
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?The Institute of Medicine is looking at much bolder cost- containment measures than have been given to the Congressional Budget Office to analyze,?
looks like they're not reviewing exactly the same thing. did either of them review what's going on in congress (how could they when congress does't know what it's doing)? will congress adopt what's in this report?

i have no doubt that medical care reform done right can save money, i'm just not confident that congress can write that bill.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: ElFenix

?The Institute of Medicine is looking at much bolder cost- containment measures than have been given to the Congressional Budget Office to analyze,?
looks like they're not reviewing exactly the same thing. did either of them review what's going on in congress (how could they when congress does't know what it's doing)? will congress adopt what's in this report?

i have no doubt that medical care reform done right can save money, i'm just not confident that congress can write that bill.

If the CBO is not including savings from things like electronic medical records and their history of estimating medicare costs has been off the mark, then i'd definitely want someone else doing the estimating.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: Phokus

If the CBO is not including savings from things like electronic medical records and their history of estimating medicare costs has been off the mark, then i'd definitely want someone else doing the estimating.

i want as many estimates as possible. then each can be considered and the more likely bits picked out. but if they weren't asked to estimate the same thing, and they apparently weren't, and neither estimated whatever congress is going to consider, then that has to be considered as well. like i said, i have no doubt that medical care reform, particularly payment system and records keeping, can be reformed to save money, but i'm not at all certain congress can write a bill to do that. last time congress tried to reduce costs was HIPPA, and that ended up having the paperwork reducing portion far outweighed by the compliance portion.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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The report is likely to reflect those cost-saving ideas, presented at three workshops in May, July and September, Walker said. Proposed solutions include simplifying medical billing forms, letting Medicare buy equipment at auction and rewarding doctors based on the quality of care, he said.

The Institute of Medicine is looking at much bolder cost- containment measures than have been given to the Congressional Budget Office to analyze,? Ginsburg said.

From reading the article it sounds like the cost saving measures the Institute of Medicine is relying upon weren't even given to the CBO?

Are these measures even in the proposals?

Besides, I don't think many are opposed to the measures mentioned.


The government has been trying since early this decade to link computerized patient records into a nationwide network that would let researchers identify the most cost-effective treatments, eliminate duplication of tests and avoid medical errors from adverse drug interactions, Brailer said.

The budget office estimated that wide adoption of electronic medical records would save no more than $5.4 billion a year, according to a Jan. 21 letter to Rangel. The Boston- based Center for Information Technology Leadership, a nonprofit arm of Harvard University-affiliated Partners HealthCare, estimated $77.8 billion in annual savings.

The government has also been trying for decades to link computerized IRS records. They've blown billions of $'s and got nowhere - good F'n luck with this.

Fern
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,234
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I thought electronic medical records were happening anyway? I thought the stimulus even had money for them.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: duragezic
I thought electronic medical records were happening anyway? I thought the stimulus even had money for them.

In a way. HIPPA was moving towards that, but of course what isn't being discussed is the cost of implementation and regulatory compliance.

HIPPA was supposed to save a lot of money, and the reverse proved to be true.
 

BarrySotero

Banned
Apr 30, 2009
509
0
0
The CBO was correct about Obama's budget being 2 trillion short so they have a good track record so far (and they are Dem appointees). It's common sense that adding millions of people to health-care and building HUGE gov bureaucracies will add to expenses. The pols aren't even fixing present hemorrhaging gov health-care entities and are just taking things up another Ponzi level with proposed stealth-care deforms.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: Fern
The report is likely to reflect those cost-saving ideas, presented at three workshops in May, July and September, Walker said. Proposed solutions include simplifying medical billing forms, letting Medicare buy equipment at auction and rewarding doctors based on the quality of care, he said.

The Institute of Medicine is looking at much bolder cost- containment measures than have been given to the Congressional Budget Office to analyze,? Ginsburg said.

From reading the article it sounds like the cost saving measures the Institute of Medicine is relying upon weren't even given to the CBO?

Are these measures even in the proposals?

Besides, I don't think many are opposed to the measures mentioned.


The government has been trying since early this decade to link computerized patient records into a nationwide network that would let researchers identify the most cost-effective treatments, eliminate duplication of tests and avoid medical errors from adverse drug interactions, Brailer said.

The budget office estimated that wide adoption of electronic medical records would save no more than $5.4 billion a year, according to a Jan. 21 letter to Rangel. The Boston- based Center for Information Technology Leadership, a nonprofit arm of Harvard University-affiliated Partners HealthCare, estimated $77.8 billion in annual savings.

The government has also been trying for decades to link computerized IRS records. They've blown billions of $'s and got nowhere - good F'n luck with this.

Fern

They should just contract it out to google, and be done with it.
 

Xellos2099

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2005
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I wonder hoiw much job will be cutted if we completely move to electronic system. Not a bad thing really...ir just prove how.... worthless these jobs really are.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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The CBO is essentially 'conservative' in their estimates ---- it's no big thang.

It's just the right thing to do.



 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: duragezic
I thought electronic medical records were happening anyway? I thought the stimulus even had money for them.

Electronic medical records...does anyone else cringe at this? Particularly when you think of the other electronic overhauls government has tried to accomplish (with, admittedly the help of private corporations) such as the IRS systems that took years and years and cost billions and still was out of date when they were "finished" or when the NIH tried an overhaul in the early nineties costing billions and then scrapped the system when they couldn't integrate it correctly.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
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Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: duragezic
I thought electronic medical records were happening anyway? I thought the stimulus even had money for them.

Electronic medical records...does anyone else cringe at this? Particularly when you think of the other electronic overhauls government has tried to accomplish (with, admittedly the help of private corporations) such as the IRS systems that took years and years and cost billions and still was out of date when they were "finished" or when the NIH tried an overhaul in the early nineties costing billions and then scrapped the system when they couldn't integrate it correctly.

You're tremendously stupid. lets look at the benefits of Vista, the VA's system (which btw, beats out private care's system)

According to a Rand Corp. study, the VA system provides two-thirds of the care recommended by such standards bodies as the Agency for Healthcare Research & Quality. Far from perfect, granted -- but the nation's private-sector hospitals provide only 50%. And while studies show that 3% to 8% of the nation's prescriptions are filled erroneously, the VA's prescription accuracy rate is greater than 99.997%, a level most hospitals only dream about. That's largely because the VA has by far the most advanced computerized medical-records system in the U.S. And for the past six years the VA has outranked private-sector hospitals on patient satisfaction in an annual consumer survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan. This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300.

http://www.businessweek.com/ma...ent/06_29/b3993061.htm

Yeah, i actually do want such a standardized system throughout our nation's healthcare system
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
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Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste

Do you really think that whatever the lawmakers finally pass will not be riddled with waste once it is implemented?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste

And you know this because we have a free market healthcare system hiding somewhere?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste

Do you really think that whatever the lawmakers finally pass will not be riddled with waste once it is implemented?

Depends on what they finally vote on. If you look at every other developed nation with UHC, they have much less waste than our absolutely terrible market based approach to healthcare.

And considering you guys don't even want a bill where IT eliminates paper waste and medical records, it shows me how serious you are about curing this particular free market failure, at the very least.

Read up on Vista, the ZOMG SOCIALIST health IT system from the VA:

According to a Rand Corp. study, the VA system provides two-thirds of the care recommended by such standards bodies as the Agency for Healthcare Research & Quality. Far from perfect, granted -- but the nation's private-sector hospitals provide only 50%. And while studies show that 3% to 8% of the nation's prescriptions are filled erroneously, the VA's prescription accuracy rate is greater than 99.997%, a level most hospitals only dream about. That's largely because the VA has by far the most advanced computerized medical-records system in the U.S. And for the past six years the VA has outranked private-sector hospitals on patient satisfaction in an annual consumer survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan. This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300.

http://www.businessweek.com/ma...ent/06_29/b3993061.htm
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste

And you know this because we have a free market healthcare system hiding somewhere?

Yeah, if it weren't for government, the free market would be able to develop their own integrated IT health system like the VA and all those 'socialist' countries with UHC. Oh wait.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Phokus
The Tea Party's new mantra should be: "WE WANT MEDICAL WASTE: NO SAVINGS THROUGH GOVERNMENT"

You really are dense if you believe that. But this is an internet forum, and you spend all your time reading left-wing blogs. Nothing I can say, nothing anyone else can say, would ever change anything in your world.

Conservatives want free market healthcare, right? Guess what free market healthcare leads to: waste

And you know this because we have a free market healthcare system hiding somewhere?

Yeah, if it weren't for government, the free market would be able to develop their own integrated IT health system like the VA and all those 'socialist' countries with UHC. Oh wait.

Of course they could. How do other enterprises develope their own IT systems? By being babied by the govt?

And that doesnt really answer my question, like usual. Where is this mythical free market healthcare system located in this world that you base your opinion on?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Genx87


Of course they could. How do other enterprises develope their own IT systems? By being babied by the govt?

And that doesnt really answer my question, like usual. Where is this mythical free market healthcare system located in this world that you base your opinion on?

Then why haven't they yet? Why aren't all the private healthcare providers communicating with each other under a unified IT standard? Why does private healthcare make so many medical mistakes in dispensing prescriptions while a truly socialist organization like the VA is near perfect?

And here's a test case for free market healthcare that CATO libertarian idiots like to advocate

http://healthcare-economist.com/2006/08/17/pacadvantage-adverse-selection-death-spiral/

?What happens to voluntary purchasing pools? Simple economics?they only get customers who can?t get a better deal in the underwritten insurance market and so they go into a death spiral where the people in them are too sick to be supported by the premiums they charge. Today PacAdvantage announced that it was closing down, throwing 110,000 people into the small group and individual market, where by definition, no insurer wants them (unless they?re like me?very lucky).

PacAdvantage is the type of organization that our friends in the ?voluntary universal insurance? world (Cato, Galen et al) think is going to solve all of our problems, with no need for pesky mandates to buy insurance, or for community rating, or standardized benefits packages

read up about screening, adverse selection, and risk selection and how free market healthcare will NEVER work because of these problems before you talk about how great free market healthcare is, little boy.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
You still cant answer the question about where this free market healthcare system exists. No surprise at all.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
You still cant answer the question about where this free market healthcare system exists. No surprise at all.

I showed you an example where it failed, no surprise you chose to ignore that PLUS the economics of why free market healthcare ALWAYS fails.

Do i have to give you "babby's first economics lesson" as a birthday gift or something?

Get back to me when you decide to learn something about how markets work rather than spouting off GOP platitudes.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
You still cant answer the question about where this free market healthcare system exists. No surprise at all.

free market healthcare system in its pure form is an impossibility since patients can't (realistically) be reasonably informed consumers.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Genx87
You still cant answer the question about where this free market healthcare system exists. No surprise at all.

free market healthcare system in its pure form is an impossibility since patients can't (realistically) be reasonably informed consumers.

Can you imagine asking the average person to go down a checklist and pick which conditions they want covered and to which extent?