Installing a ceiling fan with no attic access?

[Elixer]

I don't know who designed this house, but, there isn't really any attic access available, unless you happen to have shoulders the size of a 7 year old. The trap 'door' is 14" x 14". Can't understand why it is that small, nor can I actually get it to open. I push on it, and it seems it is blocked from the top, it just won't lift higher than 1/2".

Anyway, the room does have a ceiling light at the closet area, so, electrical is there...but, I am unsure how to go about this without attic access.

The ceiling is plaster with a pattern on it, and I think I found a stud via those stud finders, so, I could cut through the ceiling with a hole saw or something like that, but, how do I get the electrical work done?
I can't exactly reach across from the center of the room to the ceiling light, it is too far away.

Was thinking of using this

to secure the fan.

What are my options here?

 

[lxskllr]

You're familiar with plaster, right? to get to studs, you'll have to go through the laths first. Not a job I'd be excited to tackle. I'd really try to get in the attic.

 

[Elixer]

Nope, actually haven't used plaster much at all.

I was thinking, maybe that area that they cut is between the joist? Wouldn't that explain the small opening?

I did actually think about making that hole bigger, but, if they got studs there, I would hate to bring the roof down... if those are load bearing.

 

[lxskllr]

There's thin lathwork that goes from stud to stud, with perhaps .5" between them, then the plaster is laid over top of that. Concerns I have are loosening the plaster from the lath, leaving it weak since you'd have a hole cut through them(they be cantelevered), and finally, running the electric. I have no experience with this stuff, so maybe it isn't as bad as I imagine, but it certainly isn't as easy as a modern house with drywall.

I'd really want to see it from the top(the attic) first, so I knew what I was dealing with before I started. It would definitely minimize damage compared with going in from the bottom.

 

[Elixer]

Yuck, that doesn't sound like fun at all.
In another thread here, I saw someone post this for the electrical: http://www.homedepot.com/c/powering_fixutres_with_raceway_HT_PG_EL

Kinda sticks out like a sore thumb though.

 

[lxskllr]

Yuck, that doesn't sound like fun at all.
In another thread here, I saw someone post this for the electrical: http://www.homedepot.com/c/powering_fixutres_with_raceway_HT_PG_EL

Kinda sticks out like a sore thumb though.

I like the look in an old house, but my tastes are kind of esoteric. My first apt was built in 1820, and all the electric was run in channels like that. In any case, even if you don't like it so much, it's worth it to have moving air imo. Hard part is getting the fan mounted without attic access. Can you get in from the outside? Perhaps an end vent?

 

[Elixer]

Nope, this house has vaulted ceilings for the main area, no access anyplace outside.
The roof does have vents, but, those are even smaller than the trap door inside the house.

 

[Humpy]

Maybe you are lucky and don't have wood lathe. Beginning in the 1950's wood lathe began to be replaced with various types of plasterboard. It's quite a bit easier to work with.

Push harder on the access panel and get a look up there. The access is ~14" because it's constrained by the 16" centers of the ceiling joists. If there is any attic space at all, or you get lucky with the joist bays, you will likely be able to fish a wire to where you need it.

Having to blast an additional hole or two in the ceiling to run wires isn't the end of the world either. Unless it's something wildly ornate, it can be patched and the texture blended in. There are youtube videos which show how to recreate most all of the patterns.

 

[Elixer]

How much force we talking about here? I tried pressing pretty hard, but kept getting resistance, like something is blocking it from the other side.
It went up 1/2" then nothing, just the sound of it banging against something. I was afraid if I pushed any harder, I would split/damage it.

 

[Humpy]

Probably just some decomposed body parts up there weighing it down.

What's the panel made of? How is it held up to the ceiling? Pics? Will it slide in some direction other than up? Will one side raise higher than another? Sometimes they have to be jimmied around a little to get it clear, or a piece of trim has to be removed to let it come down rather than up.

 

[Elixer]

It is the same material as the ceiling, they have a wood frame around it.
Only direction it goes is up.
I suppose I could use a wonderbar on the frame, maybe it falls down, instead of pushing it up? Then again, that would be a stupid design IMO.

Could it be possible that the trapdoor was the first addition, and then, before they covered the roof, they did something to prevent it from opening any more? *shrug*

 

[paperfist]

Pics might help.

You kinda need to know which way the ceiling joists go. If they run perpendicular to where the closet electrical is then your path to running wire is going to be blocked every 16 to 24". If they run parallel to where the closet electrical is then you have a good chance of having a clear path.

Even with a clear path it's going to take a lot of work. You'll have to punch a bunch of holes in the ceiling and use some wire fish rods to pull the wire from end to end.

 

[Red Squirrel]

If you do end up cutting into the ceiling, instead of trying to replicate the pattern you could put a decorative ring around it, like this:

Idealy you don't need to make a hole any bigger than 16" between two studs. Then you add 2 16" 2x4 cross braces and the wiring box can be in between. That should hold pretty well. Be sure to properly tape up the vapour barrier when done. It is kinda tricky to do from that side. Hopefully it's batt insulation and not blown in only.

 

[Humpy]

It is the same material as the ceiling, they have a wood frame around it.
Only direction it goes is up.
I suppose I could use a wonderbar on the frame, maybe it falls down, instead of pushing it up? Then again, that would be a stupid design IMO.

Could it be possible that the trapdoor was the first addition, and then, before they covered the roof, they did something to prevent it from opening any more? *shrug*

Pretty much anything is possible working on houses. That's what makes it fun!

I've seen , and personally done, access panels where the wood frame has to be removed to lower the panel. You need access, cut a hole where you think is best, find something unexpected that changes the plan, and the owner doesn't want to pay to patch the ceiling so you make it look as best you can. It probably is stupid but not bad considering it might never even be opened again.

I would carefully open it up and see if I could learn anything to help with the fan installation.

 

[DrPizza]

You can enlarge the opening to the attic in the direction that the joists run - one dimension will still be 14", but you can make it 14x24 or something that you can fit through. Cutting into plaster and attempting to match a pattern? VERY difficult, imho.

You sure it's not a drywall ceiling? (Drywall can also be easily finished with a texture.)

Also, if you opt to make the attic entrance larger, and the attic hatch is also finished to match the ceiling, it could be a little difficult to get it to match, particularly if you've never done it before. But, that's the way I'd go to do the wiring. IF it's plaster, then be willing to use one of those medallions to cover the ceiling where the ceiling fan attaches, because no matter how carefully you cut through the plaster & lathe or whatever backer it has, there's a decent chance of chipping/loosening plaster beyond where your ceiling fan will cover. E.g.,

 

[Elixer]

Well, finally got that trap door open, but not in the normal way.

The roof had to get a new vent, since the old one decided to fly away, and peering into the hole with a bright flashlight found out that one of the cross beams was jammed up against that trap door.

Used a long roof rake pole to nudge it off the trap door, and moved it just enough to move that stupid trap door up and to the left.

I'll come back to this a bit later, since I found something odd with the roof vents that don't smell right.

 

[mindless1]

I would cut out and reframe a larger trap door, or put in a 2nd one if that works out better, or even drop down stairs/ladder if you think the attic might be a viable storage area.

Oops, didn't notice this was a year old, guess you either got the fan in or gave up by now... but I'd still want a trap door large enough that I didn't have to be a contortionist to get up there with a tool belt on.

 

[Elixer]

I would cut out and reframe a larger trap door, or put in a 2nd one if that works out better, or even drop down stairs/ladder if you think the attic might be a viable storage area.

Oops, didn't notice this was a year old, guess you either got the fan in or gave up by now... but I'd still want a trap door large enough that I didn't have to be a contortionist to get up there with a tool belt on.

Actually, no, didn't install anything yet.

Basically, once I opened up that space, and started poking around, I am shocked the house didn't burn down. The wiring job is horrible.
They did NOT use any wire nuts, they just twisted & taped up the wires.

The house did have a inspection before it was bought, and apparently, they never looked at a ton of things. There is also insulation spots missing, and I can't figure out why.

Oh, as for the trap door, I was thinking of adding one of those ladder things, then I learned if I do that, then the code changes for all the wiring up there (since it makes the attic accessible, instead of the current status of inaccessible) and I don't want to actually rewire everything correctly. Would take way too long, and much more $$$.

Making it bigger, I don't think that is possible, the beams from the roof crisscross the opening on 3 sides, and the other side is wiring.

P.S, this is also the first time I had to wear my old football helmet up there, all the nails from the shingles are sticking through, and I bumped my head on one of those suckers.... Wondering if that is a common practice or not?

 

[NutBucket]

Yes, the nails sticking through are common. Definitely pay attention!