Inspired by other insurance threads

[halik]

Originally posted by: 351Cleveland

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: chess9
So, if your 5 year old daughter has leukemia, it's tough? Nice....I'm sure your mother would have done the same for you, eh?

Probably since my family was lower middle class without great health insurance. Yeah it sucks but you deal with it the best you can. We all die eventually and depending on what you believe or not this whole life might not mean anything anyways.

You should give that a serious re-think. I wouldn't want one of my children to be in pain from an illness or injury that docters could cure or repair.

If you have this view of human life, how do you treat other life forms?

-Robert

Nobody wants that. Separating emotion from logic is difficult for most.

Where do you draw the line? Can you compel other people to submit to blood tests to locate a suitable marrow or organ donor for your kid? Do you compel (force) them to donate to save your kid? Where is the line? Are we talking just money? Do we make everyone register and donate when possible? Do we require blood donations on a routine basis? Do you have the right to take a life to save your kids?

No. We dont do these things. Same principle applies. Nobody else is responsible for the well-being of your child... legally anyway. As a Christian, it is a different story... one we wont get into.

Or even simpler thing ... how far does the "right to healthcare" extend?

If you need $1000/mo worth of meds and services?
How about $10,000/mo? $100,000/mo? Or even more? Where do you draw a line on how much to spend per person, max?

 

[sandorski]

Insurance? No. Healthcare? Sorta. It's similar to how you can expect that Raw Sewage doesn't run down the street in front of your home.

 

[351Cleveland]

Originally posted by: chess9
Right, winnar....

Which is why it's "A Fire Department fully funded by citizens taxes, roads paid by taxes, schooling paid by taxes, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Give me a break....

Americans need to get over this irrational fear of goverment run health care.

-Robert

What happens when a finite resource is spread over an infinite demand? it either gets a) stretched to the point where it isnt useful, or b) not all demand is met. What do you think will happen when government is running healthcare? Do you really think they WONT ration it? Hell it already happens in the Oregon state program (denying care... but offering suicide):

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492

Put aside the fact that government healthcare suuuuuuuucks. Yeah, I do have experience with it. Broke an ankle in the UK. The x-ray was so poor they couldnt tell (sprained they said). I WALKED (well... walk is such a loose term) on it for a day before my flight left for the US... no cast. That shit hurt. All because the GOVERNMENT PROVIDED healthcare wasnt adequate to properly diagnost a simple break. Got back to the US, and it was clear from the x-ray here that my ankle was broken. Hell I could see it. Oh... it took 4 hours JUST to get the x-ray looked at.

 

[ElFenix]

medical care is a scarce good and must be rationed in some form or another.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
medical care is a scarce good and must be rationed in some form or another.

Health care is scarce by design.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: 351Cleveland

Originally posted by: chess9
Right, winnar....

Which is why it's "A Fire Department fully funded by citizens taxes, roads paid by taxes, schooling paid by taxes, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Give me a break....

Americans need to get over this irrational fear of goverment run health care.

-Robert

What happens when a finite resource is spread over an infinite demand? it either gets a) stretched to the point where it isnt useful, or b) not all demand is met. What do you think will happen when government is running healthcare? Do you really think they WONT ration it? Hell it already happens in the Oregon state program (denying care... but offering suicide):

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492

Put aside the fact that government healthcare suuuuuuuucks. Yeah, I do have experience with it. Broke an ankle in the UK. The x-ray was so poor they couldnt tell (sprained they said). I WALKED (well... walk is such a loose term) on it for a day before my flight left for the US... no cast. That shit hurt. All because the GOVERNMENT PROVIDED healthcare wasnt adequate to properly diagnost a simple break. Got back to the US, and it was clear from the x-ray here that my ankle was broken. Hell I could see it. Oh... it took 4 hours JUST to get the x-ray looked at.

Weird, I never had a bad experience from socialized healthcare, having lived in europe the first 16 years of my life. The only real downside was lack of incentive for R&D, which meant for the first 8 years of my life i had to use allergy eyedrops that burned the shit out of my eyes. After that (curtain fell) I was able to get visine-a from pfizer :heart:

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: halik The only real downside was lack of incentive for R&D, which meant for the first 8 years of my life i had to use allergy eyedrops that burned the shit out of my eyes.

and that is our big fear. that the reduced profit incentive will drive capital elsewhere, either to other countries (bad for the u.s., but not necessarily for medicine) or out of medicine (bad for medicine).

 

[ultra laser]

On earth, your rights are in direct proportion with your power. As such, most people do not have the right to health insurance.

On whatever far away planets some of you guys inhabit things may be different.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: halik The only real downside was lack of incentive for R&D, which meant for the first 8 years of my life i had to use allergy eyedrops that burned the shit out of my eyes.

and that is our big fear. that the reduced profit incentive will drive capital elsewhere, either to other countries (bad for the u.s., but not necessarily for medicine) or out of medicine (bad for medicine).

I know. The Wall Street golden parachutes drove all the real talent that would have sold half your stolen liver on the black market organ donor lists into the derivatives markets. Medicine is all about the money and there's just not enough profit there to attract the best.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ultra laser
On earth, your rights are in direct proportion with your power. As such, most people do not have the right to health insurance.

On whatever far away planets some of you guys inhabit things may be different.

Wrong. Your ability to access your rights are proportional to your power, not the rights themselves.

 

[351Cleveland]

Is health care a right? Who holds the obligation for me having health care? It doesnt just appear out of thin air does it? Well, some would suggest that society has the obligation to provide healthcare, and that those who are able to provide should provide to those who are unable to provide for themselves. Okay. So if I am able to provide... what incentive do I have to provide if society is just going to do it for me? If I can rely on society to provide something to me that I could otherwise provide for myself... why would I bother?

You dont think this line of thinking is relevant, but it is entirely relevant. If everyone relies on society to get things done, then NOTHING will get done. If we do not rely on ourselves, then we die. Relying on the other guy to do it will always end up in nobody doing it. Ask the former Soviets how well it worked.

Some other "rights" to consider:

Do we have a right to food?
Do we have a right to shelter?
Do we have a right to clothing?
Do we have a right to hygiene?

I would argue that all of these are as critical if not MORE critical than healthcare. If we are going to expand this notion of "rights," why not start with things much more basic?

So to answer your question... No, health care is not a right.

 

[Xellos2099]

The way people think of health care is a right is exactly the reason why we are in such trouble. The world IS never fair in the first place so don't use the fair card on this. O, that guy got a better car than me, it is not fair. It is an unfair world but it is the only world we got. If everything is fair then we have a communist or a socialist government where government took everything then redistribute the wealth among the citizen. We, as human being, is suppose to pave our way to the future instead of relying on the government for everything.

True, there are many countries that got government health care but the overall quality is much lower than those of United State. Many people from Canada were willing to fly over to US and pay for the medical treatment instead of waiting for their free healthcare, why do you think is that way? Cuba got free health care too but Castro have to hire a foreign doctor for his won operation.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
The way people think of health care is a right is exactly the reason why we are in such trouble. The world IS never fair in the first place so don't use the fair card on this. O, that guy got a better car than me, it is not fair. It is an unfair world but it is the only world we got. If everything is fair then we have a communist or a socialist government where government took everything then redistribute the wealth among the citizen. We, as human being, is suppose to pave our way to the future instead of relying on the government for everything.

True, there are many countries that got government health care but the overall quality is much lower than those of United State. Many people from Canada were willing to fly over to US and pay for the medical treatment instead of waiting for their free healthcare, why do you think is that way? Cuba got free health care too but Castro have to hire a foreign doctor for his won operation.

There are more Americans than Canadians that would love to have that Option. The small amount of Canadians going to the US don't go because the Healthcare is better in the US. They go because they can get Treatment quicker in the US.

 

[Xellos2099]

It is the mentally of "not fair" that land us in the current mortgage crisis and credit crunch. Free health care, can be said as a gift from the government, neber a right.

 

[ProfJohn]

We need a healthcare system like France.

Theirs is so great that 13,000 people died during the 2003 heat wave.

Think of it this way. Imagine there was a heat wave in California and 7600 people died because of it. Hospitals were so overburdened that they stopped answering the phones. And ambulance services told people that they were on their own.

 

[First]

Yes, and it can be done cheaper if it's nationalized.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
We need a healthcare system like France.

Theirs is so great that 13,000 people died during the 2003 heat wave.

Think of it this way. Imagine there was a heat wave in California and 7600 people died because of it. Hospitals were so overburdened that they stopped answering the phones. And ambulance services told people that they were on their own.

fail

 

[eleison]

Good health Insurance/care is as much a right as the right of every man to have a hot model for a wife willing to suck his b*lls off every afternoon. Its a nice concept, but it impossible.

Hot models, like good nurses and doctors, is a limited quantity. Theres not enough to go around

 

[Eeezee]

Right to life = Right to healthcare

Right to life is right in the Declaration, so the founding fathers suggest that we have a right to life. Not 'a right to life when one has the healthcare that covers the procedure necessary to maintain that life, or the money to pay for said procedure"

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
Right to life = Right to healthcare

Right to life is right in the Declaration, so the founding fathers suggest that we have a right to life. Not 'a right to life when one has the healthcare that covers the procedure necessary to maintain that life, or the money to pay for said procedure"

Because back in the day, the founding fathers had nationalized healthcare. Not to mention, they had the "doctor machine". When a farmer from a colony became sick, Benjamin Franklin in his speckled glasses, turned a handle of the machine which moved some gears.. and viola, a doctor and nurse was created to took care of the farmer. yeah.. sure

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
Is health care a right? Who holds the obligation for me having health care? It doesnt just appear out of thin air does it? Well, some would suggest that society has the obligation to provide healthcare, and that those who are able to provide should provide to those who are unable to provide for themselves. Okay. So if I am able to provide... what incentive do I have to provide if society is just going to do it for me? If I can rely on society to provide something to me that I could otherwise provide for myself... why would I bother?

You dont think this line of thinking is relevant, but it is entirely relevant. If everyone relies on society to get things done, then NOTHING will get done. If we do not rely on ourselves, then we die. Relying on the other guy to do it will always end up in nobody doing it. Ask the former Soviets how well it worked.

Some other "rights" to consider:

Do we have a right to food?
Do we have a right to shelter?
Do we have a right to clothing?
Do we have a right to hygiene?

I would argue that all of these are as critical if not MORE critical than healthcare. If we are going to expand this notion of "rights," why not start with things much more basic?

So to answer your question... No, health care is not a right.

The Canadians would go for all that stuff. All we gotta do is sign a treaty with them establishing those rights and we're home free. I keep telling you dummies that.

I even wrote out what it could say on healt above but if you want I can do your stuff too. What language would you like it in? The Canadians might like French.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: eleison
Good health Insurance/care is as much a right as the right of every man to have a hot model for a wife willing to suck his b*lls off every afternoon. Its a nice concept, but it impossible.

Hot models, like good nurses and doctors, is a limited quantity. Theres not enough to go around

What's up with this "Limited Quantity" angle? Nations, like France, have 100% coverage and the best system in the World. I don't see any problem providing Healthcare, if one wants it.

 

[hellokeith]

So long as innocent human beings are being killed daily out of convenience, there exists no real right to life, and thus you are on your own. Stop whining about your stomach ache, many never even got the chance to breath air or see the sunrise.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
So long as innocent human beings are being killed daily out of convenience, there exists no real right to life, and thus you are on your own. Stop whining about your stomach ache, many never even got the chance to breath air or see the sunrise.

Mistakes are made in death penalty cases that is for sure.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: eleison
Good health Insurance/care is as much a right as the right of every man to have a hot model for a wife willing to suck his b*lls off every afternoon. Its a nice concept, but it impossible.

Hot models, like good nurses and doctors, is a limited quantity. Theres not enough to go around

What's up with this "Limited Quantity" angle? Nations, like France, have 100% coverage and the best system in the World. I don't see any problem providing Healthcare, if one wants it.

http://www.businessweek.com/ma...ent/07_28/b4042070.htm

In France, from what I heard, it is easier to become a doctor. Because of the AMA, in the US, its harder to become a doctor. This contributes to the limited number of doctors in the US. When medical expenses become cheaper (doctors in the US makes around 150K, doctors in the France makes around 55k due to competition). When the cost of American medical personal, thats the most expensive part of healthcare, goes down, maybe then a nationalized system maybe doable. As of right now, due to the AMA and various other groups that limit the number of medical personal and subsequently inflates their cost, nationalizing healthcare is like trying to give a hot model to every american -- ain't going to happen anytime soon.