Inspired by other insurance threads

[blackangst1]

Well? If you answer yes, is it a right because you are American or human? Would you justify anyone in this country regardless of immigration status, the same health insurance?

Here's my take. Its not a right, its a need. A right would be more important things like maybe food...water...clean air. For those who think health insurance is a right, what do you think about government sponsored food deliveries? Afterall, there are alot of hungry kids in this country, why not set legislation if under a certain income, you get say $100/week for food? (Arbitrary number) Just go to any store, present your food card, and get $100 bucks in food? Water? No water you die. Air? I need an oxigenated air system in my house-thanks Uncle Sam.

The thing people dont understand, is ANYONE can get insurance (for the most part) through state insurance pools. A friend of mine has used these for the last 10 years or so and gets basic medical stuff at no cost (except for premiums). His premiums in WA state were $21/mo and in TN are now $29/mo. Almost (if not every) state has such plans. Whats wrong with these? Because they have to pay a minimal amount? Its fucking CHEAP! And for emergencies, of course, you dont need health insurance to get treated.

I'd like to keep this civil, but Im curious why people think or dont think health insurance is a "right"

 

[Caecus Veritas]

your take on need and right is confusing... i think i understand where you are getting at but.... not sure it's phrased properly.

 

[winnar111]

No, because the idea of 300 million Americans getting Dick Cheney's healthcare is ridiculous.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

cough

 

[Craig234]

I find myself defining different types of 'rights'.

One type is alleged by our founding fathers to be a 'natural' right tat exists independant of any political system. I think that's a moral argument, but is a bit impractical.

More practical is their attempt to identify those 'natural rights' to put into the constitution. They didn't do too well at trying to broadly define them as 'all rights not expressly given to the federal government' - quick, name three rights in over 200 years that have been protected by the 9th and 10th amendments - but they got some good ones in the Bill of Rights.

A different type of right means 'something we decided all citizens should get at this time'.

Say, the right to emergency treatment for a medical situation - you go to the emergency room, and the law is, treat you then worry about the money, in principle.

Another might be the right to Medicare after age 65 - with whatever the benefits and restrictions are.

My Congressman, lovable liberal he is, every session introduces a bill for a constitutional amendment to make healthcare a right. I think he's on the right track.

The bottom line involves people's need for it and society's ability to deliver it and the alternative approaches.

I feel a bit conservative (hesitant) about saying it's a right, but am inclined to err on the side of saying it is.

Clearly though it's a different kind of right than the political rights in the Bill of RIghts.

 

[chess9]

We have:
"The RIGHT to LIFE, liberty, etc."

If you have a right to life, you should have the right to maintain that life with dignity.

Every major industrialized country in the world, save the USA, recognizes health care as a right.

When one of the OP's relatives or kids "needs" $1,000,000 worth of medical care, and they are uninsured, he will understand.

-Robert

 

[OFFascist]

You don't have a right to have the government provide you with health care.

You do have the right to go out and negotiate a business arrangement between yourself and people who provide health care though.

No one is entitled to the services of others.

 

[Rainsford]

Providing basic health care for people is fundamentally about fulfilling the government responsibility to make sure its citizens or those under its protection don't die needlessly. If that isn't the first reason to have a government, I don't know what would be. I don't know how people are able to make the argument that providing health care is like buying everyone a BMW, but a lot of people die because they can't get access to decent health care outside of an emergency room visit (that we pay for anyways). If we can't even solve this problem, then WTF are we doing here?

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: chess9
We have:
"The RIGHT to LIFE, liberty, etc."

If you have a right to life, you should have the right to maintain that life with dignity.

The "etc" that you left out was "the pursuit of happiness.

If having a "life with dignity" is what makes you happy, then you are free to pursue that. However that is not something that you are entitled to.

Every major industrialized country in the world, save the USA, recognizes health care as a right.

Yet most of them also deprive their citizens from the right of self defense. Just because others do so does not mean that its the model we should follow.

When one of the OP's relatives or kids "needs" $1,000,000 worth of medical care, and they are uninsured, he will understand.

If that happened to me then I would understand that I am fucked, that being said I wouldnt change my stance. Life isnt fair and sometimes bad things happen to good people. We just try our best and move on. Just because I have what I believe is need that doesnt mean I'm entitled to have that need fulfilled.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
You don't have a right to have the government provide you with health care.

You do have the right to go out and negotiate a business arrangement between yourself and people who provide health care though.

No one is entitled to the services of others.

That's as ridiculous an idea as what the far left communist types come up with. Anarchy isn't a valid model for a nation to run on, mostly because it requires exactly the same brainless idealism from all participants as communism does.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: chess9
We have:
"The RIGHT to LIFE, liberty, etc."

If you have a right to life, you should have the right to maintain that life with dignity.

The "etc" that you left out was "the pursuit of happiness.

If having a "life with dignity" is what makes you happy, then you are free to pursue that. However that is not something that you are entitled to.

Every major industrialized country in the world, save the USA, recognizes health care as a right.

Yet most of them also deprive their citizens from the right of self defense. Just because others do so does not mean that its the model we should follow.

When one of the OP's relatives or kids "needs" $1,000,000 worth of medical care, and they are uninsured, he will understand.

If that happened to me then I would understand that I am fucked, that being said I wouldnt change my stance. Life isnt fair and sometimes bad things happen to good people. We just try our best and move on. Just because I have what I believe is need that doesnt mean I'm entitled to have that need fulfilled.

Not in your world, we don't. In OFFascist-land, we just throw up our hands and say "oh well", because trying to do something about a problem violates some ridiculous line in the sand you decided to draw.

Edit: And that's a BS response in any case. I can pretty much guarantee that if your child was dying of something that could be fixed, but you didn't have the right insurance to get the procedure, you wouldn't be so glib about it.

 

[idiotekniQues]

dick cheney should sacrifice his pacemaker for the greater good.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Why does everyone think "care" and "insurance" are completely interchangeable?

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: OFFascist
You don't have a right to have the government provide you with health care.

You do have the right to go out and negotiate a business arrangement between yourself and people who provide health care though.

No one is entitled to the services of others.

That's as ridiculous an idea as what the far left communist types come up with. Anarchy isn't a valid model for a nation to run on, mostly because it requires exactly the same brainless idealism from all participants as communism does.

WTF are you talking about? Nobody is talking about anarchy? Are you implying that you are entitled to the services of others?

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: chess9
We have:
"The RIGHT to LIFE, liberty, etc."

If you have a right to life, you should have the right to maintain that life with dignity.

The "etc" that you left out was "the pursuit of happiness.

If having a "life with dignity" is what makes you happy, then you are free to pursue that. However that is not something that you are entitled to.

Every major industrialized country in the world, save the USA, recognizes health care as a right.

Yet most of them also deprive their citizens from the right of self defense. Just because others do so does not mean that its the model we should follow.

When one of the OP's relatives or kids "needs" $1,000,000 worth of medical care, and they are uninsured, he will understand.

If that happened to me then I would understand that I am fucked, that being said I wouldnt change my stance. Life isnt fair and sometimes bad things happen to good people. We just try our best and move on. Just because I have what I believe is need that doesnt mean I'm entitled to have that need fulfilled.

So, if your 5 year old daughter has leukemia, it's tough? Nice....I'm sure your mother would have done the same for you, eh?

-Robert

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Edit: And that's a BS response in any case. I can pretty much guarantee that if your child was dying of something that could be fixed, but you didn't have the right insurance to get the procedure, you wouldn't be so glib about it.

I can pretty much guarantee the same thing, that wouldn't change the outcome though. If someone was directly responsible for my child's injury I'd like to think that I would make them pay for it one way or another.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: chess9
So, if your 5 year old daughter has leukemia, it's tough? Nice....I'm sure your mother would have done the same for you, eh?

Probably since my family was lower middle class without great health insurance. Yeah it sucks but you deal with it the best you can. We all die eventually and depending on what you believe or not this whole life might not mean anything anyways.

 

[theeedude]

Hell yeah it's a right.

 

[Moonbeam]

I should think that everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

I think also that such a position should apply to the whole world and that the US should enter into such a notion by sacred treaty.

Only when the Republicans are swept away will we be able to advance to such a stage of evolution, however, I am quite sure.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: chess9
So, if your 5 year old daughter has leukemia, it's tough? Nice....I'm sure your mother would have done the same for you, eh?

Probably since my family was lower middle class without great health insurance. Yeah it sucks but you deal with it the best you can. We all die eventually and depending on what you believe or not this whole life might not mean anything anyways.

You should give that a serious re-think. I wouldn't want one of my children to be in pain from an illness or injury that docters could cure or repair.

If you have this view of human life, how do you treat other life forms?

-Robert

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Providing basic health care for people is fundamentally about fulfilling the government responsibility to make sure its citizens or those under its protection don't die needlessly. If that isn't the first reason to have a government, I don't know what would be. I don't know how people are able to make the argument that providing health care is like buying everyone a BMW, but a lot of people die because they can't get access to decent health care outside of an emergency room visit (that we pay for anyways). If we can't even solve this problem, then WTF are we doing here?

The first reason to have a government is perfectly well enshrined in our Constitution.

 

[chess9]

Right, winnar....

Which is why it's "A Fire Department fully funded by citizens taxes, roads paid by taxes, schooling paid by taxes, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Give me a break....

Americans need to get over this irrational fear of goverment run health care.

-Robert

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: chess9
Right, winnar....

Which is why it's "A Fire Department fully funded by citizens taxes, roads paid by taxes, schooling paid by taxes, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Give me a break....

Americans need to get over this irrational fear of goverment run health care.

-Robert

The fire department is a public good; you only need 1 fire department for the entire community. The roads are a public good. Schools aren't a public good, i suppose, but you don't have any guarantee of passing, and the cost structure is different.

More importantly, the fire department has no legal obligation to actually put out a fire.

 

[351Cleveland]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: chess9
So, if your 5 year old daughter has leukemia, it's tough? Nice....I'm sure your mother would have done the same for you, eh?

Probably since my family was lower middle class without great health insurance. Yeah it sucks but you deal with it the best you can. We all die eventually and depending on what you believe or not this whole life might not mean anything anyways.

You should give that a serious re-think. I wouldn't want one of my children to be in pain from an illness or injury that docters could cure or repair.

If you have this view of human life, how do you treat other life forms?

-Robert

Nobody wants that. Separating emotion from logic is difficult for most.

Where do you draw the line? Can you compel other people to submit to blood tests to locate a suitable marrow or organ donor for your kid? Do you compel (force) them to donate to save your kid? Where is the line? Are we talking just money? Do we make everyone register and donate when possible? Do we require blood donations on a routine basis? Do you have the right to take a life to save your kids?

No. We dont do these things. Same principle applies. Nobody else is responsible for the well-being of your child... legally anyway. As a Christian, it is a different story... one we wont get into.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Providing basic health care for people is fundamentally about fulfilling the government responsibility to make sure its citizens or those under its protection don't die needlessly. If that isn't the first reason to have a government, I don't know what would be. I don't know how people are able to make the argument that providing health care is like buying everyone a BMW, but a lot of people die because they can't get access to decent health care outside of an emergency room visit (that we pay for anyways). If we can't even solve this problem, then WTF are we doing here?

The first reason to have a government is perfectly well enshrined in our Constitution.

Well the Constitution deals with honoring treaties so we should make one with Canada saying just what I said above, "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control." and then we would have to honor it and it would be our law.