Indonesia Hotel Blast Kills 13

[etech]

Indonesia Hotel Blast Kills 13, Hurts 149



The question I have. Just what the hell do they expect to gain by actions such as this?

 

[DealMonkey]

They're terrorists - what reason do they need? Maybe they want an islamic state. Maybe they're pissed at Indonesia's leadership. Maybe they're targeting Americans. Who knows?

 

[mastertech01]

President Megawati Sukarnoputri toured the wreckage and visited the wounded at a hospital. On Friday, she gave a state-of-the-nation address calling militants "a terrifying threat" and vowing to "dismantle the terrorist network to its roots."

Well hopefully THIS will be the net result.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: mastertech01

President Megawati Sukarnoputri toured the wreckage and visited the wounded at a hospital. On Friday, she gave a state-of-the-nation address calling militants "a terrifying threat" and vowing to "dismantle the terrorist network to its roots."

Well hopefully THIS will be the net result.

Unfortunately it seems Indonesia is headed down the slippery slope of "rogue states".

Link

I will warn you that the site is a tad bit biased against the current Administration.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: mastertech01

President Megawati Sukarnoputri toured the wreckage and visited the wounded at a hospital. On Friday, she gave a state-of-the-nation address calling militants "a terrifying threat" and vowing to "dismantle the terrorist network to its roots."

Well hopefully THIS will be the net result.

Indonesia has been fairly cooperative in the war on terror, and this episode is likely to strengthen their resolve, not hurt it. A strike against a prominent, Western hotel that represents the business world is a direct attack on Western economic interests in Indonesia and could potentially severely damage international investment in the country. That is something which the government obviously wants to avoid and will take measures to ensure that Westeners are not discouraged from visiting and investing.

Unfortunately it seems Indonesia is headed down the slippery slope of "rogue states".

Hardly. Does your international political news come from Sesame Street?

 

[Dari]

as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: mastertech01

President Megawati Sukarnoputri toured the wreckage and visited the wounded at a hospital. On Friday, she gave a state-of-the-nation address calling militants "a terrifying threat" and vowing to "dismantle the terrorist network to its roots."

Well hopefully THIS will be the net result.

Indonesia has been fairly cooperative in the war on terror, and this episode is likely to strengthen their resolve, not hurt it. A strike against a prominent, Western hotel that represents the business world is a direct attack on Western economic interests in Indonesia and could potentially severely damage international investment in the country. That is something which the government obviously wants to avoid and will take measures to ensure that Westeners are not discouraged from visiting and investing.

Unfortunately it seems Indonesia is headed down the slippery slope of "rogue states".

Hardly. Does your international political news come from Sesame Street?

I just provided some commentary to a link that provides some information with cited sources. Thanks for the unwarranted personal attack though, I hadn't received one all day...

 

[Brie]

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

 

[Brie]

DP

 

[mastertech01]

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

It depends on whether their concerns are reasonable. You cant bow down to terrorists simply because they are determined to have things their way. If we had terrorists who demanded that all taxation stopped immediately and they were blowing up citizens and tourists in protest, what are you going to do, stop all taxation?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mastertech01

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

It depends on whether their concerns are reasonable. You cant bow down to terrorists simply because they are determined to have things their way. If we had terrorists who demanded that all taxation stopped immediately and they were blowing up citizens and tourists in protest, what are you going to do, stop all taxation?

Depends how bad the terrorists can hurt you and how big the threat really is.

If they had 5 nukes stationed in our five largest cities we might be receptive. Or not. 20 or not. 100? eventually the potential loss of life will percipitate negotiations. We did leave vietnam and lebonon eventually.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

Okay, the source in this case is the desire by the terrorists to have an Islamic state in Indonesia. How do you suggest to combat that source? The solution is to destroy the terrorists because they are the source. These are not some hippies that may have made a wayward choice in tactics; they are extremists that are prepared to stop at nothing to impose thier will. Dari is right, liquidation is the only solution.; destroy them as completely and utterly as possible. Keep them hunted and on the run.

 

[Fencer128]

depends on whether their concerns are reasonable. You cant bow down to terrorists simply because they are determined to have things their way. If we had terrorists who demanded that all taxation stopped immediately and they were blowing up citizens and tourists in protest, what are you going to do, stop all taxation?

No, but if enough people believed in this, leaders were replaced by younger members as they were bumped off, they were highly organised.... then if you had that kind of ingrained and developed terrorist threat - you might have to negotiate to lower taxes a little. Maybe it's not that you're dealing with the terrorists per se - but that you're reaching out to their supporters - most of whom would not pick up a gun - but might have some sympathy for their cause. Eliminate that and you eliminate the terrorism.

Andy

 

[Zebo]

jjones- the reason and target was the US. Happened over there simply based on opportunity. They certainlky would have preferrd to attack more americans and more american intrests but are too impotent.

I agree about hunting them. Been saying for years we should set up dummy corps in these third world holes and go hunting at night while building schools during daylight.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Zebo
jjones- the reason and target was the US. Happened over there simply based on opportunity. They certainlky would have preferrd to attack more americans and more american intrests but are too impotent.

I agree about hunting them. Been saying for years we should set up dummy corps in these third world holes and go hunting at night while building schools during daylight.

That's too simplistic; the US is just used as a convenient whipping post. These guys want to change the society in which they live; their fight, at the moment, is with the society in which they live. They detest Western influence and the largest purveyor of Western influence is the US. If the US were isolationist, then their targets would be with the British or the French. Their choice of targets represents an attack against the Western influences which they abhor and allows them the ability to get the most press for their violent actions. If they blow up a local government office, then they get local news, local attention. But, if they blow up a foreign business or operation, they attack what they hate in their society and get international news and attention. The two go hand in hand. But it all comes down to the fact that they want to change the society in which they live; to make it an Islamic state after their extremist ideals. They're not trying to change the foreign society other than to get their influence out of the region.

Edit: To put it another way, if their was no foreign influence which to attack, no foreign interests or operations in country, they would still be bombing because the current government is not what they want. They literally want to bomb the country in which they live back into the stone age.

 

[Nitemare]

Maybe they want to alienate themself from the Islamic world as well, so that 100% of the world's population hates them?

They are just evil savages that get off on killing others.

 

[AvesPKS]

USA Today
LA Times

WSJ

Washington Post

New York Times

 

[DealMonkey]

Police Find Documents Showing Plans for Jakarta Attack

...

The Jemaah Islamiyah rebel group, believed linked to the Al Qaeda (search) terror network, allegedly claimed responsibility for the hotel bombing in remarks published by Singapore's Straits Times newspaper. But it couldn't immediately determined if the claim was authentic.

The blast came two days before a verdict in the trial of a key suspect in the Bali (search) nightclub bombings last Oct. 12 that killed 202 people, which was blamed on Jemaah Islamiyah. Tuesday was also the first day of testimony in another bombing case by the alleged leader of Jemaah Islamiyah -- a shadowy group said to be fighting to install a pan-Islamic state in Southeast Asia.

Indonesia's top security minister Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono on Wednesday warned of more terrorist attacks in the vast archipelago, saying that the two court cases were reasons enough for Muslim extremists to lash out.

...

 

[rchiu]

Blaming everything on terrorism is way too simplistic view of what is going on in Indonesia. There are many problems in Indonesia and any one of the problems or combination of problems could've caused this. There are sever gap between the rich and the poor, there are power struggle between different political/religious group, there are problem between ethnic groups, there are dissatisfaction towards the current government, there are hatred toward western countries especially Australia and the US. The problems are compounded by bad education system, bad infrastructure and ineffective law enforcement.

Lot of these problems arises after previous president Suharto, who ruled the country with strong hand, was removed from the office. The two presidents since were weak and did not have the control of the country, politicians, or military. The country was in chaos because people are trying to get their share of power and money. No one can determine what the policy should be with authority. Lots of Indonesian's I knew, and I know lots of them, wish Suharto did not leave.

This is another good example of a country that is not ready for democracy, and chooses to go that route. Maybe this is just a growing pain, or maybe this will cause permanent damage to the country. Just want to point out that democracy as American defines it, is not a cure all for everyone.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Blaming everything on terrorism is way too simplistic view of what is going on in Indonesia. There are many problems in Indonesia and any one of the problems or combination of problems could've caused this. There are sever gap between the rich and the poor, there are power struggle between different political/religious group, there are problem between ethnic groups, there are dissatisfaction towards the current government, there are hatred toward western countries especially Australia and the US. The problems are compounded by bad education system, bad infrastructure and ineffective law enforcement.

Lot of these problems arises after previous president Suharto, who ruled the country with strong hand, was removed from the office. The two presidents since were weak and did not have the control of the country, politicians, or military. The country was in chaos because people are trying to get their share of power and money. No one can determine what the policy should be with authority. Lots of Indonesian's I knew, and I know lots of them, wish Suharto did not leave.

This is another good example of a country that is not ready for democracy, and chooses to go that route. Maybe this is just a growing pain, or maybe this will cause permanent damage to the country. Just want to point out that democracy as American defines it, is not a cure all for everyone.

you're right. it takes time to build a democratic society. one of the pains is by bringing these assholes to the courtroom, rather than having a hunting party (although the latter would be a tasty treat for trigger-happy G.I.s) Ironically, people said the same thing about Japan. But the japanese were morally bankrupt, they were homogenic and never as corrupt as the indonesians.

With that being said, let's not forget that these attacks are synchronized with messages from Terror Lord bin Ladenand his goons. Hence, the attacks are not only opportunistic, but they are an end in themselves. Nothing is worse than that.

 

[Brie]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

Okay, the source in this case is the desire by the terrorists to have an Islamic state in Indonesia. How do you suggest to combat that source? The solution is to destroy the terrorists because they are the source. These are not some hippies that may have made a wayward choice in tactics; they are extremists that are prepared to stop at nothing to impose thier will. Dari is right, liquidation is the only solution.; destroy them as completely and utterly as possible. Keep them hunted and on the run.

Yes we should keep them hunted and on the run if they break a law. Its not as simple as "liquidating" all of the terrorists. Even the most optimistic news source I have seen has admitted that young al queda members are taking over where their predecessors left off. You state that these terrorists are extremists and we must kill them. While we may not have enough resources to stop the elders, these terrorist?s actions are a product of environment. The thing we need to change is the environment and convince the recruits that violence and notably terrorism is not the answer.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

Okay, the source in this case is the desire by the terrorists to have an Islamic state in Indonesia. How do you suggest to combat that source? The solution is to destroy the terrorists because they are the source. These are not some hippies that may have made a wayward choice in tactics; they are extremists that are prepared to stop at nothing to impose thier will. Dari is right, liquidation is the only solution.; destroy them as completely and utterly as possible. Keep them hunted and on the run.

Yes we should keep them hunted and on the run if they break a law. Its not as simple as "liquidating" all of the terrorists. Even the most optimistic news source I have seen has admitted that young al queda members are taking over where their predecessors left off. You state that these terrorists are extremists and we must kill them. While we may not have enough resources to stop the elders, these terrorist?s actions are a product of environment. The thing we need to change is the environment and convince the recruits that violence and notably terrorism is not the answer.

try explaining that to someone who wants to blow himself up, and take as many people with him as possible.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: etech
Indonesia Hotel Blast Kills 13, Hurts 149



The question I have. Just what the hell do they expect to gain by actions such as this?

Attention and fear.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: Dari
as with 9/11, this is what happens when people sit on their ass until terror makes a housecall. In indonesia's case, she sat on her ass twice. Tourists and investors should steer clear of that hell-hole until the inept gov't gets a clue.

EDIT: This may be a stretch, but a wholesale liquidation campaign of all known terrorists in that country would've at least prevented this tragedy.

woah woah...Im not sure of the history of the Indonesian situation, but it seems to me that these "terrorists" actions arent spurratic. I bet that this group has protested for years and obviously feels that they are not being heard. They may have made a questionable choice by resorting to violence but this does not give us the right to do the same to them.

We could stifle radical and violent viewpoints but where does it end? I think that it is impossible to stop terrorism by rooting out the terrorists. The solution is to combat the source not the end result.

Okay, the source in this case is the desire by the terrorists to have an Islamic state in Indonesia. How do you suggest to combat that source? The solution is to destroy the terrorists because they are the source. These are not some hippies that may have made a wayward choice in tactics; they are extremists that are prepared to stop at nothing to impose thier will. Dari is right, liquidation is the only solution.; destroy them as completely and utterly as possible. Keep them hunted and on the run.

Yes we should keep them hunted and on the run if they break a law. Its not as simple as "liquidating" all of the terrorists. Even the most optimistic news source I have seen has admitted that young al queda members are taking over where their predecessors left off. You state that these terrorists are extremists and we must kill them. While we may not have enough resources to stop the elders, these terrorist?s actions are a product of environment. The thing we need to change is the environment and convince the recruits that violence and notably terrorism is not the answer.

try explaining that to someone who wants to blow himself up, and take as many people with him as possible.

You're missing the point, if you kill a hundred of them there will be a thousand who will gladly take their place, so where does it end? As someone else also mentioned, you need to address the root causes. This does not entail making Indonesia a Muslim state under Sharia law. What it will take is addressing the causes that lead people to embrace radical Islam which, in turn, leads them to demanding an Islamic state using terrorism as a loudspeaker. To do this you have to tacle issues like education and poverty as most of the people who turn to RI are uneducated, ignorant and desperate, which makes them highly susseptible to manipulation by radical mullahs. If you are promised a better afterlife if you blow yourself up, why wouldn't you take it if you have no hope of having a decent existence in this one? And if you're ignorant, you're not likely to question someone who tells you he's conveying the word of God. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that its the way it is. You have to address the root causes.

 

[etech]

Interesting. I thought it was only a few extremist Muslims who were not following the peaceful and tolerant religion.

Now LilBlinbBlahIce says "if you kill a hundred of them there will be a thousand who will gladly take their place" and BarneyFife says that they are doing it only for attention and fear.

I would say that you don't give in to their demands as the first step. Creating an Islamic state does not seem to be a way to reduce terrorism, at least not according to your views.