Individualism vs. Collectivism

[joohang]

Perhaps because I am more inclined to be individualistic, I have trouble understanding the logic behind people who argue group interests as a priority.

If you think about it, isn't individualism more effective for pursuing group interests as long as some measures are taken so that the individual does not get too greedy?

The group consists of individuals, so how can the group know what it wants and what it needs without checking this up with each individual?

I run into this conflict all the time with my parents who always argue that they do everything "for the family" but they never consult with anybody but their own selves, and led our family on the virge of doom. I think that their case is an example of so-called egoists under collectivist disguise.

Individualism has the danger that it may promote too much benefit concentrated on certain individuals. Collectivism has the danger that it may disrupt fluid interaction between individuals, and thereby preventing the group from learning about itself.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

[Looney]

Collectivism is why asians that come over to the western world, without a penny in their pocket and knowing a single word of English, are generally 'successful' in a generation, with kids doing good and them themselves living nicely.

Individualism is why people who live here, who speak the language and understand the culture, yet they're still stuck in the projects and ghetto... who's parents are likely to be drug addicts, or selfish than to seeing their child have the best before they do.

 

[joohang]

Aren't you only speaking for successful collectivists and failed individualists?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: joohang
Aren't you only speaking for successful collectivists and failed individualists?

Yes... but if you look at the macroview of it, you'll see that collectivism plays a role in those that are successful.

 

[Looney]

How aware are you of Adlerian theory on behavior? If you're not aware of it, Adler claimed that the majority of our behavior, are done out of the need for social acceptance. The bodybuilder that goes to the gym 2-3 hours a day, does it not *solely* on the intrinsic enjoyment out of it, but because he believes that looking good, will make him more socially accepted. The person that buys a Porsche, doesn't do it because he solely loves the beauty of the Porsche, but also because of what the Porsche will do to his social status.

Collectivism emphasizes the need for social acceptance more than individualism. You can see these in the extremes... the extreme collectivism of an Asian family who believes everything that is done, should be done in the name of the family. And you can see the extreme of individualism in hippies who raise their children to 'find their own' way and purpose in life... who are more likely to be against the mainstream of society than with it (and seen more as deviant or unusual because they're against the mainstream).

 

[Moonbeam]

My comment is that you may be trying to intellectualize your feelings. The truth is that you want to kill your parents, is what I think. That's an OK feeling to have. perfectly understandable from where I stand. The thing is, feeling it and acting on it are two different things. It's only a feeling. It's not a reality or something they truly deserve. I think it's true of everybody, but you been taught since you were small to swallow any aggressive feelings to your folks. That turned around introverted aggression is a form of self hate. Getting to know what you feel is like going to hell. You find out that everything that you were taught was rotten in the world is exactly now you feel. That makes you feel horrible when you first begin to learn. Later its no big deal. We couldn't help but be what we are and couldn't help but feel what we feel. So forget the collective individual stuff and learn to feel. Everything will be very clear. But it takes a while.

 

[guyver01]

I thought the thread said Individualism vs. Cannibalism there for a second.

whew

 

[Looney]

Well, i did a paper on this issue before actually. It had to do about my own experience growing up in a collective family, while also growing up in an individualistic society. Our parents reinforce in us the need to do things for the family, to becareful of what you say and do, because it reflects on the family's name. But then in western society, you're pushed to be your own individual, to find your own place in this world and what makes *yourself* happy. This lead me to rebelling against my family (since individualism is more enticing than collectivism).

 

[joohang]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I should definitely look up that person.

My take on individualism also involves social acceptance. It is to my best interest to be accepted and loved by my family. It is also to my best interest to be accepted by the society. So an individualist who claims little importance of social acceptance is only hurting himself/herself.

I think that as I elaborate through this reasoning, individualists and collectivists are not too different. The only difference is that individualism is relatively more reductionistic so I find it slightly easier to understand.

 

[Looney]

Or they have a deviant form of social acceptance. Criminals become criminals because they want to be accepted by their criminal peers... it is 'cool' to steal a car or to think you're a badass. Adlerian therapy is to 'reprogram' the individual to have more socially acceptable social acceptance.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Well, i did a paper on this issue before actually. It had to do about my own experience growing up in a collective family, while also growing up in an individualistic society. Our parents reinforce in us the need to do things for the family, to becareful of what you say and do, because it reflects on the family's name. But then in western society, you're pushed to be your own individual, to find your own place in this world and what makes *yourself* happy. This lead me to rebelling against my family (since individualism is more enticing than collectivism).

Could I read your paper?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Well, i did a paper on this issue before actually. It had to do about my own experience growing up in a collective family, while also growing up in an individualistic society. Our parents reinforce in us the need to do things for the family, to becareful of what you say and do, because it reflects on the family's name. But then in western society, you're pushed to be your own individual, to find your own place in this world and what makes *yourself* happy. This lead me to rebelling against my family (since individualism is more enticing than collectivism).

Could I read your paper?

i wish! I actually lost that paper

 

[dolph]

two words: ayn rand

 

[gururu]

if one wishes to be part of a whole, they must contribute to the whole, therefore accepting collectivism. if one wishes to remove oneself from the whole, they practice individualism. both suit the needs of the individual, so long as the individual is content. I have yet to meet a true individualist; one who forsakes dependencies on family, friends, employment, and society.

the asian/ghetto correlation is a poor example. they are hardly comparable considering that one group was oppressed and divided so as to prevent collectivism, and the other essentially forced into a state of collectivism.
the criteria for the development of each is distinct. each has reacted as best they could given their environments.
both yet exist and therefore are equally successful.

 

[joohang]

Are you describing an individualist or an extremely selfish egotist?

Is an individual who is completely disconnected from the society content?

Compared to a collectivist, individualists probably emphasize more on independence from the group. But my current understanding tells me that individualists do not take it to the degree of extreme you describe.

 

[gururu]

In my view, individualism is the practice of ensuring ones self-interests. It can be but is not necessarily a selfish means of existence. Such an individual may have difficulty empathizing with others, perhaps avoiding social relationships altogether, or perhaps manipulating relationships to suit their own interests. In one case the individual feeds off the collective (thieves, conmen), in the other, the individual is independent of the collective (the proverbial hermit).

One may impart to oneself certain aspects of individualism in order to assert identity, but ultimately we accept social standards and conform, becoming productive members of society, as collectivists.

 

[everman]

You must join the collective, resistance is futile.

 

[Moonbeam]

The intellectualization of feelings can be so profound as to be passed by completley unremarked on.

 

[grrl]

Originally posted by: gururu
I have yet to meet a true individualist; one who forsakes dependencies on family, friends, employment, and society.

How would you label the Unibomber?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: joohang
Perhaps because I am more inclined to be individualistic, I have trouble understanding the logic behind people who argue group interests as a priority.

If you think about it, isn't individualism more effective for pursuing group interests as long as some measures are taken so that the individual does not get too greedy?

The group consists of individuals, so how can the group know what it wants and what it needs without checking this up with each individual?

I run into this conflict all the time with my parents who always argue that they do everything "for the family" but they never consult with anybody but their own selves, and led our family on the virge of doom. I think that their case is an example of so-called egoists under collectivist disguise.

Individualism has the danger that it may promote too much benefit concentrated on certain individuals. Collectivism has the danger that it may disrupt fluid interaction between individuals, and thereby preventing the group from learning about itself.

Any thoughts or comments?

sorry, but your parents don't live under a collectivism model, but a Hierarchy model. they are parents you are children and you will obey.

at least thats the way most asian parents operate.

 

[So]

my advice: read a little of Ayn Rand's writings when you get a chance...she is an unabashed individualist, but at least you'll hear it from 'the source'

 

[StageLeft]

All I know is when you get a bunch of stupid people in a large group the collective intelligence seems even less.

 

[grrl]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
All I know is when you get a bunch of stupid people in a large group the collective intelligence seems even less.

LOL

 

[Nitemare]

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated


Individualism is cool unless you are so far out in left field that you are on a separate planet

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
All I know is when you get a bunch of stupid people in a large group the collective intelligence seems even less.

mob rule

(interestingly, there were 2 mobs)