Indianapolis auto workers drive UAW executives out of meeting

[Orignal Earl]

So, if GM is offering them transfers to other plants, that is probably their best option.

Ok, I did the ultimate sin, I replied before i read the article.

I would probably be packing my bags too.

 

[Red Dawn]

If I were the new owners I'd prefer not to have disgruntled employees working for me and you know that anybody taking a 50percent pay cut is going to be disgruntled. Hey if the work is as menial as some of you say it is it shouldn't be hard to replace them.

My question is why doesn't the company go through with the sale and just replace the workforce?

 

[PokerGuy]

My question is why doesn't the company go through with the sale and just replace the workforce?

You guessed it, unions. As usual the union screws everything up.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

From the Indy Star article I linked:

One incentive would have provided a worker with a $35,000 cash payout and a right to return to another GM plant at full UAW scale, currently $29 per hour, after working for Norman. Another would have let eligible GM workers retire at full pension and at the same time work full time for Norman, Davison said.

Ok, seriously -- GM is bending over backwards to help these people. I know that I've never received any of these incentives to change positions or move to a different plant in the past.

Any of you blaming GM for this situation are just being ridiculous.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Any of you blaming GM for this situation are just being ridiculous.

And those blaming the union as well.

The workers themselves ran off the union folk

edit- and the union is nothing without the workers, the workers are the union

 

[Exterous]

From the Indy Star article I linked:



Ok, seriously -- GM is bending over backwards to help these people. I know that I've never received any of these incentives to change positions or move to a different plant in the past.

Any of you blaming GM for this situation are just being ridiculous.

Yeah - I read the article and was about to post that. What more do you expect them to do? Their pensions are nothing to sneeze at AND YOU CAN STILL WORK while getting the payout. $15.50/hr + pension?! How is that not enough?

GM told people in 2007 that the plant would close if no buyer was found. It's not like this should be a suprise to the workers there.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

And those blaming the union as well.

The workers themselves ran off the union folk

edit- and the union is nothing without the workers, the workers are the union

Yeah, I'd have to agree in this case -- the workers are to blame.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Yeah - I read the article and was about to post that. What more do you expect them to do? Their pensions are nothing to sneeze at AND YOU CAN STILL WORK while getting the payout. $15.50/hr + pension?! How is that not enough?

Plus don't forget the $35,000 cash pay out. So, you can work for Norman, take the $35K pay out, and then transition back to a GM plant (or is it ANY UAW plant?) for your original salary. $35K is about $17/hr on a yearly basis so if you have to work for Norman for a year before you can go back to GM, you are actually making MORE than you would at GM. Even if they stipulate 2 years, you're still making the equivalent of $24 an hour -- better than unemployment for sure.

GM told people in 2007 that the plant would close if no buyer was found. It's not like this should be a suprise to the workers there.

They've had more than ample time, I'd agree.

 

[Red Dawn]

You guessed it, unions. As usual the union screws everything up.

Why do they have to be Union? They don't have a binding contract with the UAW.

 

[Red Dawn]

Plus don't forget the $35,000 cash pay out. So, you can work for Norman, take the $35K pay out, and then transition back to a GM plant (or is it ANY UAW plant?) for your original salary. $35K is about $17/hr on a yearly basis so if you have to work for Norman for a year before you can go back to GM, you are actually making MORE than you would at GM. Even if they stipulate 2 years, you're still making the equivalent of $24 an hour -- better than unemployment for sure.



They've had more than ample time, I'd agree.

Actually sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Actually sounds like a pretty good deal.

It is a great deal in my opinion that both the UAW and GM worked out for them. God knows that I will never see a deal like that if my position is in danger.

 

[rudder]

LOL at all you tough guys advocating people vote for a 50% reduction in their wages. Sure, they're between a rock and a hard place but, how many of you could survive in your current home with a permanent pay cut like this? Those living in your mom's basement need not reply. For the rest, come up with something better than "sell your house and move" too. If you're not aware of current conditions in the real estate market, you may want to brush up on that some. I've not touched on the second largest expense for many here which could be transportation or tuition costs for their kids. So keep that in mind.

A 50% pay cut is hard anyway you look at it... but I live near a GM plant. I have seen these workers buy very expensive homes, expensive cars, pools, etc. They were doing this when times were good... relying on the extra cash from sweet overtime money. Once things slowed down and they lost the overtime all you would hear is bitching. You get addicted to a certain type of lifestyle and its hard to adjust... but as others have said... 50% is a better cut that 100%. That $300/week unemployment although seemingly lasting forever... is not easy to live on.

 

[Mursilis]

A 50% pay cut is hard anyway you look at it... but I live near a GM plant. I have seen these workers buy very expensive homes, expensive cars, pools, etc. They were doing this when times were good... relying on the extra cash from sweet overtime money. Once things slowed down and they lost the overtime all you would hear is bitching. You get addicted to a certain type of lifestyle and its hard to adjust... but as others have said... 50% is a better cut that 100%. That $300/week unemployment although seemingly lasting forever... is not easy to live on.

Why be prudent and plan for an unknown future when Uncle Sucker will bail your dumb arse out if the company goes bankrupt?

 

[boomerang]

Actually sounds like a pretty good deal.

It is, if there are positions available elsewhere. But typically the way it works is that there has to be an open position. In other words, you can't put a lower seniority worker at a totally different plant out on the street. So, that's something to factor in which I'm sure is affecting their thinking on this.

Right now, I think the workforce is not thinking clearly because they've finally become enraged by the the way the union itself operates. I, uh, ahem, know first hand. The UAW is to a great degree a dictatorship. They just "elected" a new president of the union. I have elected in quotes because the membership has no real input into the process. There are reps sent for these elections but there is no voting by the membership and their input is not solicited, nor would it even be accepted. Who the "winner" is, has already been determined prior to the "election". The election itself is a mere formality.

The manner in which the union is run, combined with the seemingly endless demands for concessions and the general economy as a whole are undoubtedly weighing heavily on their minds. I think the results could be a total about face with a cooling off period and a reasonable explanation of what and why from someone the workers respect.

At this point though, that person may not exist within the UAW. So...

 

[Exterous]

A 50% pay cut is hard anyway you look at it... but I live near a GM plant. I have seen these workers buy very expensive homes, expensive cars, pools, etc. They were doing this when times were good... relying on the extra cash from sweet overtime money. Once things slowed down and they lost the overtime all you would hear is bitching. You get addicted to a certain type of lifestyle and its hard to adjust... but as others have said... 50% is a better cut that 100%. That $300/week unemployment although seemingly lasting forever... is not easy to live on.

4 years notice of facility closing + $35,000 + $15.50/hr job or 4 years notice + full pension + $15.50/hr job was a heck of a lot better than what I was offered when the company I worked for went banckrupt. This was a sweet deal compared to my 'I have a job till I show up one day and they tell me it's my last day' and they refused to take it! I know a lot of Americans who would love to have this sort of 'disaster' happen to them

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Perhaps the rejection of the plan is irrational, but I find myself cheering for the auto workers in this one, telling highly-paid Union leadership to go fuck themselves.

 

[Orignal Earl]

It is, if there are positions available elsewhere. But typically the way it works is that there has to be an open position. In other words, you can't put a lower seniority worker at a totally different plant out on the street. So, that's something to factor in which I'm sure is affecting their thinking on this.

Right now, I think the workforce is not thinking clearly because they've finally become enraged by the the way the union itself operates. I, uh, ahem, know first hand. The UAW is to a great degree a dictatorship. They just "elected" a new president of the union. I have elected in quotes because the membership has no real input into the process. There are reps sent for these elections but there is no voting by the membership and their input is not solicited, nor would it even be accepted. Who the "winner" is, has already been determined prior to the "election". The election itself is a mere formality.

The manner in which the union is run, combined with the seemingly endless demands for concessions and the general economy as a whole are undoubtedly weighing heavily on their minds. I think the results could be a total about face with a cooling off period and a reasonable explanation of what and why from someone the workers respect.

At this point though, that person may not exist within the UAW. So...

Brothers and sisters," said outgoing UAW president Ron Gettelfinger. "Democracy in action."

Walkowicz was nominated by Cathy Abney, also a member of UAW Local 600 in Dearborn.

“Even when he was nearly alone among the elected and supported leadership, he never wavered on his stance against concessions,” Abney said.

Walkowicz's bid for president, however, is a long shot. After Abney spoke, Walkowicz accepted the nomination, but was booed by most of the delegates on the convention floor.

UAW Vice President Bob King, a UAW vice president since 1998 and a longtime labor leader known for supporting social justice issues and effective organizing, also was nominated for president and received a standing ovation with a majority of delegates cheering and blowing horns in support.

Still, to be elected, the union's rules require a roll call vote with delegates from each UAW local voting. Some of those delegates represent more than one vote and the number of votes depends on the size of the local.

There are 1,082 delegates attending the UAW’s Constitutional Convention who represent 4,117 votes, according to Elizabeth Bunn, the UAW’s current secretary-treasurer.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100616/BUSINESS01/100616023/King-elected-UAW-president

So your saying the workers don't get to vote for their delegates (reps) ?

 

[MotF Bane]

Perhaps the rejection of the plan is irrational, but I find myself cheering for the auto workers in this one, telling highly-paid Union leadership to go fuck themselves.

Heh, a short-sighted decision, but I do have the same feeling about it.

 

[boomerang]

http://www.freep.com/article/20100616/BUSINESS01/100616023/King-elected-UAW-president

So your saying the workers don't get to vote for their delegates (reps) ?

No, they do get to vote for the reps. What I said, and I say it from experience, is that that there is no polling either formally or informally done of the membership as to whom they wish to see attain the office. There is no posting of who is "running", there is no campaigning done by those "candidates". The board decides who the winner is going to be. The reps are told whom to vote for and the go along to get along attitude results in a winner being crowned.

There is a facade of democracy in the process. It's nothing more than that. The upper crust of the union decides who gets the job and in doing so, ensure that they in turn will be in line for that job when their time comes. Assuming they tow the line of course.

I could tell you stories that no union member would ever believe could be true.

Edit: I've been unusually busy lately, so I'll explain further while I have time.

Unless the process has changed, the Teamsters elect their President under the system of one man one vote.

The UAW elects their President under a process more akin to the Electoral College. Like the EC except for one major difference. The EC meets to elect the POTUS and they vote based upon the results of the election in which the people voted. They are bound to vote in line with the wishes of the people. The UAW reps are akin to the EC delegates. There is one big difference. The rank and file did not vote for anyone.

 

[boomerang]

Perhaps the rejection of the plan is irrational, but I find myself cheering for the auto workers in this one, telling highly-paid Union leadership to go fuck themselves.

It's something that needs to be done and something that has needed to happen for a long, long time.

It's wrong, but it's oh so right.

 

[Orignal Earl]

No, they do get to vote for the reps. What I said, and I say it from experience, is that that there is no polling either formally or informally done of the membership as to whom they wish to see attain the office. There is no posting of who is "running", there is no campaigning done by those "candidates". The board decides who the winner is going to be. The reps are told whom to vote for and the go along to get along attitude results in a winner being crowned.

There is a facade of democracy in the process. It's nothing more than that. The upper crust of the union decides who gets the job and in doing so, ensure that they in turn will be in line for that job when their time comes. Assuming they tow the line of course.

I could tell you stories that no union member would ever believe could be true.

Edit: I've been unusually busy lately, so I'll explain further while I have time.

Unless the process has changed, the Teamsters elect their President under the system of one man one vote.

The UAW elects their President under a process more akin to the Electoral College. Like the EC except for one major difference. The EC meets to elect the POTUS and they vote based upon the results of the election in which the people voted. They are bound to vote in line with the wishes of the people. The UAW reps are akin to the EC delegates. There is one big difference. The rank and file did not vote for anyone.

UAW Constitution - Powers of Administration
ARTICLE 7

Powers of Administration

Section 1. The International Union shall be governed by its membership in the following manner:

(a) The highest tribunal shall be the International Convention composed of delegates democratically elected by the membership of Local Unions.

It looks like they were supposed to be voted on. Maybe you guys should of voted out your shop steward ( if you got to vote for that at least)

I've been in Steelworkers and the Boilermakers Union and that crap would never fly

 

[IndyColtsFan]

UPDATE: Plant to be shuttered as no agreement has been reached.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. These guys are hoping that GM allows them to transfer to other plants (a big IF given the current climate). So, it will cost Marion County (which is basically the same as Indianapolis) $1.8 million in property taxes and 700 jobs with an estimated payroll of $40 million.

I drive by this plant on the way to work every day and was just thinking this morning about what would happen if it closed.

 

[PokerGuy]

Stupid union + stupid workers = fail.

 

[PeshakJang]

So basically, these idiots rejected the opportunity to continue working for the government (GM), in exchange for free money from the government (unemployment).

I say that they should be ineligible for UE insurance. They were given the chance to continue employment with some pretty damn good incentives, and decided that they would rather be jobless. The rest of us shouldn't be paying for their stupidity.

 

[Scotteq]

I would take the lay off, collect unemployment, and look for another job

Well - If one accepted the layoff, then they'd also stand potentially to losing their Retirement benefits. Not a big deal for a young guy. But in the case of long time auto workers those benefits are considerable and giving that up would be the working class equivalent of walking away from your 401(k) savings plan. Which is a nice way of saying "..it's the difference between being able to support yourself after 65 or potentially living on dog food until sweet death takes you away..."

So - Yeah, it's a big deal.

Having said that - it appears there may be no choice in the matter.