Incredibly Interesting Thread! Look here!

[ArkAoss]

is it me, why do people seem to put a space before the second A in my name? ArkAoss? hmm

but your right it is all about faith. what you believe, sure I can find actual archeological findings proving all kinds of stuff in the bible, but that would still leave some of it based upon your faith that those things that they dont have proof for are linked to those things they do have proof for. But also there is no actual proof AGAINST anything in the bible, there is no stone carving any where that contradicts stuff in the bible.

 

[GL]

Optimus,

And this predisposition...where does it come from? I believe I have been predisposed with great gifts and talents from God, in addition to being straight. My question is...if God instills this predisposition in people, why does he do it if homosexuality is somehow related to the devil? If you believe that God predisposes people to be evil (and this is what you believe if you think 1) homosexual is evil and 2) God predisposes people to be homosexual), then God is not all Good because he is capable of, and does perform the spread of evil, since free will should ensure that some people act on these evil predispositions. If God is not all Good you get into a very messed up situation that totally throws traditional Christian thinking out the window...so it's either believe that homosexuality is not evil or believe that Christian thinking is totally whack. For me, I chose the former as the latter just didn't seem completely true.

Anyhow, I don't mean to be crapping on this thread by starting off on a tangent but I particularly don't like it when people are called abominations for being the way they are. I also don't like it when people start threads calling religionists slack-jawed, so I'll take the opportunity to voice my discontent on this point too. Acceptance is not a mandatory requirement for tolerance. Tolerance is an utmost virtue and you'll get through life a lot easier and much better with tolerance. So I don't quite understand when atheists (not as a whole but members of this group) decide they can't tolerate "religionists" because they do not accept their beliefs, and vice versa.

-GL

 

[pidge]

Romans 10:4 defines the new covnenant that Jesus established which doesn't require any of those practices outlined on that little excerpt from the West Wing. That excerpt just shows some of the ignorance of some of the anti-religion liberals. I am not a fan of Dr. Laura. I also don't watch the West Wing. I wish I knew what followed that line of questioning. Is the President in the TV show attacking Christians or a Dr. Laura type? I strive to be a Christian but I have done a lot of bad things as well (not towards anyone though). I can't have the attitude of Dr. Laura. Even if I was perfect, I don't think anyone should have the same attitude and rudeness of Dr. Laura.

 

[Optimus]

Napalm - thats my point, you don't believe it, others do. No one can just argue the other side into losing. Its all what you believe.

ArkAoss (I got it right that time!):
There is plenty of evidence... but in the end you either believe or don't.

GL:
I'm confused as to what you think, sorry. I'm honestly not sure or not following it...

The belief is that evil exists due to fallen nature. A lot of things form our predispositions, from genes to experience, to belief. From all that we are pre-disposed or have tendencies to all sorts of things, like types of food or people... etc. With all that in mind, actions and heart are all that should be judged - who we are and what we do.
A quote I've heard: "God only gives crosses to those who can bear them".

Really, if there were a kleptomaniac (I'm not comparing, I'm just giving an example of a pre-disposition) who considers stealing wrong and never does it, who would judge him wrong?

People are who they are. It is what they do and what is in their hearts that matters.

 

[Optimus]

pidge - as the president is portrayed as christian on the show, I take the scene to be a slam against hypocrites.

 

[Athanasius]

Predisposition is a complicated theological issue. Gross oversimplifications only polarize. To say that God is the direct, immediate caue of every human predisposition, whether for good or for evil, is an oversimplification.

Such a statement overlooks many biblical passages and widely recognized church writings that dealt with such issues.

The predisposition of an individual is not what God is primarily interested in. He knows the ins and outs of my peculiar temperment, my nature, and the nurturing I received far better than I ever will.

A person taught by abuse and example to be cruel to animals might, through a simple act of kindness to a lost puppy, show a triumph of grace far greater than perhaps many of us can imagine. Grace allows the individual of faith to overcome destructive predispositions, make meaningful choices, and remove some of the tarnish from the image of God that every human bears within.

It isn't where one begins, it's the direction that one is moving in.

BTW, the Old Testament Mosaic laws and rituals are clearly taught (in the Bible) to be temporary. Neither hyper literalists or Bible bashing skeptics should wrench them from there cultural context and use them to champion their personal agendas.

 

[BDawg]

Ever noitce that a lot of people who think the bible shouldn't be read literally believe the constitution should?

 

[Optimus]

BDawg:
Hmmmm.... not sure what you mean. Do you mean that many christians are republicans/conservatives and that republicans take the constitution more literally than Democrats?

 

[maximus]

GL, there are far more proofs for the validity of the Bible than your ability to try and discount it. You say that much of the Bible has been mistranslated. Well maybe you should read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls which are dated back to the time of around 200 AD. These translations have been found to have been remakably well kept through the years and even today. Another reason that there is more proof for the validity of the Bible were historians of the time such as Josephus, whose accounts of the history of Israel before and during the life of Christ are also remarkably similar to those translations of today. He also has the history of other things not mentioned in the Bible, which gives even more validity to his historical remarks because he wasn't just trying to copy the Bible, or say that he had divine inspiration from God. So maybe you should think about what you argue before you actually spurt it out randomly.

 

[GL]

Optimus,

What I believe is that God does not create evil. He can create a shortcoming of good in some people and a surplus of it in others, but he does not create evil. If this is the case, and since I believe homosexuality is "predisposed", then it cannot be evil.

When we are created I believe we are perfect in the sense of being all good. However, some shortcomings of good traits make us vulnerable to evil and it is up to our free will to ensure we do not fall prey to this evil. The argument could be made then, as you have pointed out that homosexuality might be a shortcoming of a good trait. But a shortcoming to what? You are either homosexual or you are not. Since homosexuality is an absolute, and God has predisposed people with it, then it cannot be evil.

On the other hand, you may be predisposed to be very intelligent, somewhat intelligent or not very intelligent. Being not very intelligent opens the door to carrying out evil if - i.e. as is the case with racists who tend to prey on people who aren't very intelligent. Thus, intelligence (or more properly a lack thereof) can be evil.

-GL

 

[ArkAoss]

Athanasius, I'm not bothering any more with the thread, but R you a mod or somthing?

 

[GL]

maximus,

I have read about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Unfortunately, not all of them are disclosed to the public. I remember watching a documentary (I believe on CNN) about a Catholic priest from the U.S. who was privileged enough to study the Dead Sea Scrolls. He came back saying that revealing the entire contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls would discount many of the teachings of Christianity. But, the main message of the Bible would still hold true, and he is still a priest.

My issue with the Bible is not in its main message which I wholeheartedly agree with. It is in the details that things start to become blurry and the possibility of misinterpretation becomes great. What I take literally in the Bible, are those direct accounts of Jesus and his teachings. That being said, I don't think there was any direct account or teaching from Jesus about the evils of homosexuality. Please enlighten me if I am incorrect by providing me with a quote from Jesus that talks about homosexuality. There are plenty of quotes about being straight that preachers have interpreted to mean that not being straight is sinful, but I haven't seen a quote from Jesus that talks about homosexuality at all, let alone saying it is evil. I honestly would be very interested in seeing this quote, so if there any, let me know.

-GL

 

[BDawg]

Optimus,

Generally, most very christian people are very conservative. While they feel that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, they politically see the Constitution as steadfast and unchangeable.

e.g. The right to own guns should not be taken away

Generally, most liberals believe the Constitution to be a living document that is made to be updated.

e.g. The right to own guns was made in a different time. That right is now more dangerous than benificial.

I'm not condoning either side. I like to take things on a case by case basis. I just see a lot of hypocracy from religous organizations in politics. I'm a christian and a republican, but I think that seperation of church and state should be absolute.

 

[Optimus]

GL:
Right, God doesn't create evil, but sometimes he allows it.

Anyway, back to the topic - Catholic teaching is that being homosexual is not evil or wrong, but that the act is a sin along the same lines as sex outside marriage, it goes against Catholic beliefs. People are not wrong for having predispositions, but acting on them can be considered wrong.

i.e. - BEING a jlepto isn't wrong, but stealing is. See?

 

[Athanasius]

Btw. . .

No, I am not a moderator.

 

[GL]

Optimus,

arghh You're not getting my point. I don't think that God "allows" homosexuality. I think he intentionally creates it and since I believe that he doesn't create evil, then being a homosexual cannot be evil - it's a logical argument if you accept the following conditions 1) God creates homosexuals and/or a homosexual tendency and 2) God doesn't create evil.

If you don't accept those two conditions, don't go bashing me (not meant at you Optimus)...I'm just stating what I believe, and if you believe those two conditions then it becomes very difficult to not come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not evil. If you believe that God creates evil (not just the capacity, but is actively doing so) then by all means you can argue that homosexuality is evil.

-GL

 

[maximus]

God certainly did not create evil, but he DID give humans free will to do what they pleased. That was the whole point of Adam and Eve. People choose things, right or wrong. Homosexuality as it is laid out in the Bible is wrong, period. There is no evidence to the contrary. We live in a fallen world, and God certainly not responsible for it. It is the actions of the people living on earth who caused the problem in the first place. Otherwise why would anyone believe in the second coming of Jesus? The whole point is that Jesus will come back and take all Christians with him and after the end of the earth, a new earth will be made for those who chose Jesus to live forever. I sound like a preacher, I know. I am merely trying to explain my logic.

 

[Optimus]

Ahhhh... I see where we differ.

BTW, I'm saying that Catholicism does not view homosexuality as wrong, but that the act (sex) is viewed as a sin. you see? At first it is the same as your belief, that being homosexual is not wrong, but the difference seems to be that you say that since the predisposition exists the act is ok, where the catholic view is that the predispostion is not a sin, but the act is.

Did I get that right?


Anyway, I'm glad to see some rational discussion came out of this thread, although I thought for sure my little mock headline would make it interesting to Russ again!

 

[Harvey]

<<Homosexuality as it is laid out in the Bible is wrong, period.>>

So, if I reject your bible as nonfactual, or of mixed fact and fiction with no distinction as to which is which, it follows that I can reject any argument based solely on anything it says.

 

[BDawg]

Well if some of the bible can be ignored (Lev 11:7 pig skin) and some can't (Lev 18:22), who's to decide?

Oh, well that's mosaic law, we don't have to obey that...but the part about the destruction of S&amp;G where they killed the gays, that's cool. We believe that, so that part of the bible is okay.

Seems to me that some people like to believe the parts of the bible that fits their beliefs, but sweep the rest under the carpet.

Republicans and Democrats are guilty. It's not discriminatory.

 

[maximus]

Harvey, you make no point. You obviously make that statement believing that the Bible is false. So what is your point? Unless you want to rationally talk about it, it is a waste of your time to even post in this thread, in my opinion.

 

[Wallydraigle]

Okay, first of all the notion of homosexuality is not condenmed only in the Old Testament. Second no where does the bible make the distinction that homosexuality is any worse of a sin than sex outside of wedlock. Adultery is a sin of exactly the same magnitude as an ACT of homosexuality. Having sex before marriage is a sin of the exact same magnitude as committing an ACT of homosexuality. This is all lumped under the term fornication. It's true, you can't help how you feel about someone. If you are homosexual by nature, there is nothing you can do, at least as far as I know, to feel straight. It's how you act on those feelings that is either right or wrong. Is it okay for someone who has anger mangement problems to be violent? After all that's just the way they are. There is a difference between feeling a way, or having an inclination, and carrying it out.

 

[Thorn]

Huh?!?! The validity of true Christian values is above reproach and not open to figurative translation. Comparing Christian values to a second rate TV show? You've got to be kidding.

Look, this is very simple. Those of us who are Christian have 3 laws to follow.

1.) Hear, oh Israel, the Lord your God. The Lord is One. (Only one God, no others)

2.) You shall love your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and might.

3.) And you shall love your neighbor as your self (or the literal translation, &quot;as your Soul&quot

Just for clarification, the additional &quot;post calf&quot; laws are referred to as &quot;the curse of the Law&quot; and are the punishment to Israel for disobedience and idolitry and were never intended for any other nationality.

As far as Dr. Laura goes, she's tough I'll grant her that. But she's also very fair and makes a great deal of sense. If a person lived their life according to what she taught they would be well rewarded by it. Sure she gets a little rough with people sometimes, but many people need that type of prodding to get back on the right path. I'm not saying I agree with everything she says, but she is right more often than not.



Athanasius,

Are you Orthodox Catholic? I only ask because you really seem to have your head screwed on right.

 

[Elita1]

GL--what Optimus says is correct according to the Catholic code of canon law.
God does not instill predispositions. Predispositions come from genetic make-up and experience.
You are very correct in saying that God does not creat evil. However we are fallen creatures so the leaning to commit sin is there.
According to your belief, a person with a predisposition to violence(for example), if God &quot;gave&quot; him that predisposition and he commits acts of violence against the innocent, his acts would not be wrong.
This goes against all Catholic teaching.
God gives us a soul, a spirit and a conscience; and instills us with GRACE to fight and overcome our predispositions that would lean us toward sin.
I am not attacking you at all; and I hope you don't find offense at what I say and you are certainly entitled to what you believe in. I just pointed out what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[azazyel]

Maximus-

If you know the origins of my name cool. If not don't preach about the dead sea scrolls. There is a lot more there than you would want to known. Infact there is a quasi alternate story of Genesis in there known as the Book of Enoch. Very good book, in fact Anne Rice based Memnoch the Devil off it. Also, the Free Masons believe they are descendants from the knights templar and that they actually own the pillars of Enoch. I am sure no one understands any of this but that's cool. I am just a Christian who loves the challenging my own beliefs.

Oh, for those who are into the ocult, or just want religous info (not just christian by a long shot) here is a great site. Unfortunately you have to get a membership (life for 9.95) but there is really good and objective information in there.

Link