Incredibly depressing poll.

[Jhhnn]

Ridiculous and irrelevant. The "respondents" defined WMD as NBC weapons, meaning they believed there were NBC weapons in Iraq, which there were not. The OP's point that these respondents are out of touch with reality therefore stands.

The distinction here is of course critical, because not only did they believe something that was not true, but they believed the allegations of the Bush administration, who repeatedly claimed there were NBC weapons in Iraq. In other words, they continue to be suckered, even up through today, even AFTER the Bush admin itself has repudiated these allegations.

I think a great deal of what we see from "Conservatives" has to do with fragile self image. On the one hand, their faith based commitment to identity politics makes them clay in the hands of expert propagandists, and on the other hand they're desperately afraid of being suckered. So when they have been suckered, they can't admit it, even to themselves, because they'd feel shame & inadequacy.

Which just makes them more susceptible the next time.

What few Liberals or Progressives understand about modern Conservatives is that it's not about facts, or knowledge, or reason or anything like that. It's about identity, and about Faith. They've been taught since childhood to Believe- in Jesus, in Capitalism, in conformity, sanctity, loyalty, work, (some of which is quite admirable) in the inherent goodness of those who espouse what they've been taught to believe & to emulate. So when the figures & the ideas they believe in fail to deliver, they just keep on believing, anyway. Never looking at what they believe & why they believe it is the easy way to cope, and if what they're being told makes them feel good in some fashion or another, even a perverse fashion, they'll just enjoy the feeling.

Their leadership understands them perfectly well, plucking at their strings the way that Robert Cray plucks the strings of his guitar. That guitar can't play itself, isn't self actualizing, and neither are they.

 

[woolfe9999]

What few Liberals or Progressives understand about modern Conservatives is that it's not about facts, or knowledge, or reason or anything like that. It's about identity, and about Faith. They've been taught since childhood to Believe- in Jesus, in Capitalism, in conformity, sanctity, loyalty, work, (some of which is quite admirable) in the inherent goodness of those who espouse what they've been taught to believe & to emulate. So when the figures & the ideas they believe in fail to deliver, they just keep on believing, anyway. Never looking at what they believe & why they believe it is the easy way to cope, and if what they're being told makes them feel good in some fashion or another, even a perverse fashion, they'll just enjoy the feeling.

My take, and it's probably a different way of saying the same thing, is that we're in the midst of a heightened culture war right now. The so-called disagreements about economics, taxation, and deficits are just a cover for an emotionally charged cultural schism. It's modernity versus tradition; urban vs. rural; religious versus secular; black versus white; intellectual versus anti-intellectual. These are the real issues.

If these various economic disagreements were real, the conservatives would actually, for example, lower government spending while in power. Except that conservatives only fear a government that they perceive as being run by liberals. Many of these disagreement are over issues that are merely instrumental and/or pragmatic. Heck, some come down to math. If this wasn't really a culture war at its core, both sides would listen to reason and we'd be able to work out these problems, social issues like abortions excepted, of course. I think that plays in to what you describe as identity politics, and people wrapped up in it are unable to acknowledge even the most basic and proven facts.

- wolf

 

[Jhhnn]

My take, and it's probably a different way of saying the same thing, is that we're in the midst of a heightened culture war right now. The so-called disagreements about economics, taxation, and deficits are just a cover for an emotionally charged cultural schism. It's modernity versus tradition; urban vs. rural; religious versus secular; black versus white; intellectual versus anti-intellectual. These are the real issues.

If these various economic disagreements were real, the conservatives would actually, for example, lower government spending while in power. Except that conservatives only fear a government that they perceive as being run by liberals. Many of these disagreement are over issues that are merely instrumental and/or pragmatic. Heck, some come down to math. If this wasn't really a culture war at its core, both sides would listen to reason and we'd be able to work out these problems, social issues like abortions excepted, of course. I think that plays in to what you describe as identity politics, and people wrapped up in it are unable to acknowledge even the most basic and proven facts.

- wolf

I think that the culture war is just cover for the real war, the economic class warfare that's being successfully waged from the top down, and has been for over 30 years. It's always been there, of course, but the concepts adopted during the New Deal Era kept the middle class winning it, or at least holding their own. When we got suckered into setting that aside, we wounded ourselves most grievously. Our grandfathers & great grandfathers learned the hard way that extreme concentration of wealth is anathema to the middle class & egalitarian democracy itself, particularly in an age of unprecedented ability to manipulate public opinion for the purposes of power holders. It's not about money per se, either, but about acquiring more power.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

"Careful little troll", really? That's your A game? That's as menacing as you can manage? You know that sounds like the flamboyant homosexual villein in a b movie, right? Trying to threaten cybrsage into silence is nothing short of absurd. If you have information, provide it. If you have an opinion say it, but leave the alpha male routine for someone with a testicle.

LOL...cybr is a known bigoted troll banned from multiple sites, and already temp banned here several times......he has been repeatedly been proved wrong about Iraq WMD, but continues to lie.

Perhaps you have proof he is right and would care to share it? Because all the UN reports, US reports, UK reports, US officials all say you and cybr are wrong.

So maybe you want to post some actual facts?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Amd the cowardly cat reappears, completely ignoring US law as if it does not apply to the US.

Hi coward! Did you write Hans Blix yet and demand he tell you which time he lied?

Now you will need to write the entirety of the US Congress and ask them why they think US Law does not apply to the US.

You do realize intentionally lying is a forum offense? Going for the trifecta of forum banning?

Please explain how the official UN report says there is no WMD (written by Blix mind you).

Please explain the official US report saying there is no WMD.

Please explain how Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, and all other official all admit there were no WMD.

So in short, explain how every governmental agency in the world has examined the evidence and all agree that there are no WMD, but somehow you know better? Proof please, not more of your lies.

If you refuse to post proof, we will take your lack of evidence as admitting that you know you are lying.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I find it more depressing that there are likely hundreds of thousands, if not a few million people in this country - that think just like Cyber does...

Apparently ~63% of the GOP is willfully ignorant just like our troll. Sad for this country.

 

[fskimospy]

My take, and it's probably a different way of saying the same thing, is that we're in the midst of a heightened culture war right now. The so-called disagreements about economics, taxation, and deficits are just a cover for an emotionally charged cultural schism. It's modernity versus tradition; urban vs. rural; religious versus secular; black versus white; intellectual versus anti-intellectual. These are the real issues.

If these various economic disagreements were real, the conservatives would actually, for example, lower government spending while in power. Except that conservatives only fear a government that they perceive as being run by liberals. Many of these disagreement are over issues that are merely instrumental and/or pragmatic. Heck, some come down to math. If this wasn't really a culture war at its core, both sides would listen to reason and we'd be able to work out these problems, social issues like abortions excepted, of course. I think that plays in to what you describe as identity politics, and people wrapped up in it are unable to acknowledge even the most basic and proven facts.

- wolf

I agree this is definitely more of a 'sports team', cultural conflict than it is about genuine public policy. While I do believe that liberals can be victim to 'cultural blind spots' as well, I just don't think there's any equivalence in the quantity or quality of them.

Hell, I remember seeing another poll in which people were asked what specific program areas they wanted to cut, with an important change of eliminating the 'I don't know' area, thus forcing them to actually make a choice. Republicans actually proved LESS willing to specify areas to cut spending on than Democrats were. To me this points to a cultural desire to cut spending as an idea but it ends at that. That's a very dangerous position for a major political party to hold.

 

[nehalem256]

I agree this is definitely more of a 'sports team', cultural conflict than it is about genuine public policy. While I do believe that liberals can be victim to 'cultural blind spots' as well, I just don't think there's any equivalence in the quantity or quality of them.

Hell, I remember seeing another poll in which people were asked what specific program areas they wanted to cut, with an important change of eliminating the 'I don't know' area, thus forcing them to actually make a choice. Republicans actually proved LESS willing to specify areas to cut spending on than Democrats were. To me this points to a cultural desire to cut spending as an idea but it ends at that. That's a very dangerous position for a major political party to hold.

Try looking at Q7 in the link Poll results

Republicans like to talk about cutting the budget deficit, but is going to be awfully hard without

Increasing taxes on the rich, cutting military spending, cutting medicare, or cutting social security.

 

[fskimospy]

Try looking at Q7 in the link Poll results

Republicans like to talk about cutting the budget deficit, but is going to be awfully hard without

Increasing taxes on the rich, cutting military spending, cutting medicare, or cutting social security.

I was thinking of a different poll, but this one works just as well. Defense, Social Security, and Medicare along with interest on the debt comprise 2/3rds of the federal budget. More than half of Republicans are uninterested in cutting any of them at all. This is simply not a rational way to look at the budget from a deficit reduction standpoint.

Regardless of what one thinks the right balance of all those is, there's really no escaping that a large portion of deficit reduction will have to come from those areas.

 

[cybrsage]

I agree this is definitely more of a 'sports team', cultural conflict than it is about genuine public policy. While I do believe that liberals can be victim to 'cultural blind spots' as well, I just don't think there's any equivalence in the quantity or quality of them.

Hell, I remember seeing another poll in which people were asked what specific program areas they wanted to cut, with an important change of eliminating the 'I don't know' area, thus forcing them to actually make a choice. Republicans actually proved LESS willing to specify areas to cut spending on than Democrats were. To me this points to a cultural desire to cut spending as an idea but it ends at that. That's a very dangerous position for a major political party to hold.

Stop thread crapping. Go make a thread about cultural conflicts if you want to discuss them. This thread is about a depressing poll.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

If you refuse to post proof, we will take your lack of evidence as admitting that you know you are lying.

So I guess he have proof that cybr knows he's lying, since he can't post proof.

After all, he is the one that claims that lack of immediate rebuttal is proof of acceptance, LOL. His own rules used against him, haha.

 

[fskimospy]

So I guess he have proof that cybr knows he's lying, since he can't post proof.

After all, he is the one that claims that lack of immediate rebuttal is proof of acceptance, LOL. His own rules used against him, haha.

In all fairness I asked him to stop shitting up my thread and he eventually complied. If you really want to endure yet another cybrsage argument, I'm sure he'd be willing to have it elsewhere.

 

[xBiffx]

In all fairness I asked him to stop shitting up my thread and he eventually complied. If you really want to endure yet another cybrsage argument, I'm sure he'd be willing to have it elsewhere.

LOL you actually think he stopped because you said so. You ARE full of yourself. Perhaps he stopped because he made his point and you had nothing to respond with besides "don't crap up my thread". Seems you did a pretty good job of that yourself given the OP backfire.

Anyways, its funny to see so much arguing over semantics and using that to support a poll and then an entire thread. In the end, does it really matter what people think about the possibility of WMD's in Iraq? Is history going to reverse itself or is anyone going to take this any further than something else to bitch about pertaining to the Iraq war? Is this going to go any further than more bullshit political debate. Doubtful, but don't let that stop you from thinking any of this matters in the end.

60% of the country believes in the existence of aliens. There is no proof of this but they still believe in it. How depressing. Stupid Americans.

 

[fskimospy]

LOL you actually think he stopped because you said so. You ARE full of yourself. Perhaps he stopped because he made his point and you had nothing to respond with besides "don't crap up my thread". Seems you did a pretty good job of that yourself given the OP backfire.

Anyways, its funny to see so much arguing over semantics and using that to support a poll and then an entire thread. In the end, does it really matter what people think about the possibility of WMD's in Iraq? Is history going to reverse itself or is anyone going to take this any further than something else to bitch about pertaining to the Iraq war? Is this going to go any further than more bullshit political debate. Doubtful, but don't let that stop you from thinking any of this matters in the end.

I genuinely don't care why he stopped. He didn't make any point whatsoever that was relevant to the thread, which is why people were piling on him. As for what people think about WMD's in Iraq of course it matters; why you would think that it matters because of its possible effects on the Iraq War however would just mean that you didn't bother to read or understand my OP. (when you go back and do this feel free to correct your silly idea that my OP 'backfired' somehow... I won't hold my breath though)

The fact that one of America's two major political parties has nearly two thirds of its self identified members believing in at least two utterly delusional fantasies that have been extensively debunked in public for years means that those people are simply dismissing reality in favor of partisanship. No matter what political leanings you have, that's depressing and dangerous stuff.

 

[woolfe9999]

I think that the culture war is just cover for the real war, the economic class warfare that's being successfully waged from the top down, and has been for over 30 years. It's always been there, of course, but the concepts adopted during the New Deal Era kept the middle class winning it, or at least holding their own. When we got suckered into setting that aside, we wounded ourselves most grievously. Our grandfathers & great grandfathers learned the hard way that extreme concentration of wealth is anathema to the middle class & egalitarian democracy itself, particularly in an age of unprecedented ability to manipulate public opinion for the purposes of power holders. It's not about money per se, either, but about acquiring more power.

Yes, but the class war is really being fought by the puppet masters who are behind the conservative base, not so much the base itself. They are unwitting pawns in supporting policies which are, for the most part, against their interests. For the rank and file conservatives, this is a culture war at it's core. The wealthy interests who are pulling their strings understand this quite well.

For example, the concept of the state regulating corporations - they're told that this is a "liberal" idea. It's those college educated liberals with their fancy words and ideas who do not understand anything about or care anything for "real Americans." They must be stopped from regulating corporations and taxing the wealthy or pretty soon they're going to be forcing their way of life on everyone. These people fear liberalism and the wealthy interests behind conservatism know this very well and play them like well tuned violins.

 

[cybrsage]

So I guess he have proof that cybr knows he's lying, since he can't post proof.

After all, he is the one that claims that lack of immediate rebuttal is proof of acceptance, LOL. His own rules used against him, haha.

Stop thread crapping. Go make a thread about yoru lustful desires for me if you want to discuss them. This thread is about a depressing poll and nothing else.

 

[cybrsage]

The fact that one of America's two major political parties has nearly two thirds of its self identified members believing in at least two utterly delusional fantasies that have been extensively debunked in public for years means that those people are simply dismissing reality in favor of partisanship. No matter what political leanings you have, that's depressing and dangerous stuff.

If you do not want to discuss your lie regarding the WMDs, you need to stop lying about it. Saying a lie and when crying when someone points out you are lying is disengenuous. You are purposefully taking your own thread off topic when you do so. So unless you want me to restart exposing your lie, you need to stop posting it.

Go back to discussing how depressed you are and stop the lie, you are thread crapping with your lie.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, but the class war is really being fought by the puppet masters who are behind the conservative base, not so much the base itself. They are unwitting pawns in supporting policies which are, for the most part, against their interests. For the rank and file conservatives, this is a culture war at it's core. The wealthy interests who are pulling their strings understand this quite well.

For example, the concept of the state regulating corporations - they're told that this is a "liberal" idea. It's those college educated liberals with their fancy words and ideas who do not understand anything about or care anything for "real Americans." They must be stopped from regulating corporations and taxing the wealthy or pretty soon they're going to be forcing their way of life on everyone. These people fear liberalism and the wealthy interests behind conservatism know this very well and play them like well tuned violins.

So how exactly do you think that feeds into the WMD part? Do they defend it because liberals attack it, or for some other reason? It seems strange to continue to believe something that the 'string pulling leadership' has publicly admitted was wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

latest gallup numbers I saw were that 1/3 self-described Republicans support the "birther" line of batshittery.

Now, while that is far less than 2/3, it is still appalling.

 

[Bowfinger]

So how exactly do you think that feeds into the WMD part? Do they defend it because liberals attack it, or for some other reason? It seems strange to continue to believe something that the 'string pulling leadership' has publicly admitted was wrong.

I'd guess there are two factors in play: the right wing bubble (i.e., Fox and its kin) and ego. Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect Fox and the wing-nut infotainers have continued to parrot the lie about WMDs in Iraq. (I doubt Cybrsage invented this deception all by his lonesome.) I also suspect ego plays a big role. People don't like to admit they were suckered, especially when it's by someone they look up to. Democrats can more easily admit the Bush administration lied to them because they never liked him anyway. On the other hand, Republicans idolized him, making it more difficult for them to accept he betrayed their faith.

 

[cybrsage]

latest gallup numbers I saw were that 1/3 self-described Republicans support the "birther" line of batshittery.

Now, while that is far less than 2/3, it is still appalling.

Yeah, that is stupid. It really does not even matter WHERE he was born, since his mom passed the natural born citizen label to him at birth. He was born in Hawaii, I am sure, but even if he was born in Kenya it would not matter one bit as to whether he can be President.

 

[Jhhnn]

OK, I will leave you all to your "hahaha, people think that WMDs were found in Iraq - they are stoopid" thread where you claim it is off topic to talk about WMDs being found in Iraq.

You guys can pat each other on the back for how "smart" you are, proclaiming US law does not apply to the US and that the WMDs found in Iraq do not exist. Have at it. You all know you are wrong, but that never stopped you from refusing to admit it before, why start now, eh?

You said you were going to go troll another thread, another forum, another something, anything, after being exposed as a dishonest & desperate trollster, but here you are, still trolling in a most blatant fashion. Apparently, it's what you live for, even if your continued presence is a blight on even semi-rational discourse. It's not that you're stupid, but rather deliberately & calculatingly obtuse in the fashion of all truly disgusting right wing propaganda spewing operatives.

You've offered that perception is reality, then do your damnedest to create such impressions about yourself as a mega-troll. In that regard, you're a success. Congratulations.

 

[cybrsage]

You said you were going to....

Stop thread crapping. Go make a thread where you lie about what I said if you want to discuss it. This thread is about a depressing poll and nothing else, per the requerst of the thread creator.

 

[Jhhnn]

Stop thread crapping. Go make a thread where you lie about what I said if you want to discuss it. This thread is about a depressing poll and nothing else, per the requerst of the thread creator.

Still trolling up the place. Quoting your post verbatim & in toto is lying about what you said? How can that be?

Were you lying when you said it in the first place, having no intention of abandoning your persistent trolling? Or were you just being snotty, attempting to duh-vert from your absurd position, the one still promoted by right wing propagandists & held by all too many true believers, fringe whacks and wingnuts that makes the poll so depressing to people who maintain a viable connection to reality?

The essence of that poll is that many repubs believe in lies that even their leadership have abandoned, lies that you attempt to sustain by whatever dishonest means you can muster.

 

[woolfe9999]

So how exactly do you think that feeds into the WMD part? Do they defend it because liberals attack it, or for some other reason? It seems strange to continue to believe something that the 'string pulling leadership' has publicly admitted was wrong.

Well of course, the birther crap is pure culture war.

With respect to WMD's, Bowfinger's answer is a good one. However, it's worth mentioning that Bush's hawkish foreign policy, including allegations of WMD's and a link between AQ and Iraq, is also part of the culture war. It's a xenophobia in particular about Muslims and Arabs, and to be fair, 911 heightened it greatly. Some liberals were susceptible to it as well, though they more quickly turned on Bush when it became clear there were no WMD's.

Sticking with it is an ego defense and as such, to some extent is just general human psychology that isn't particular to conservatives, though it's certainly a question of degree. Not sure how many liberals would continue to hang onto something like that for so long. Then again, there are thin reeds to hang their hats on, as we can see from Cybrsage's various rationalizations. As well, I'm sure they recall the Bush admin speculating about WMD's being spirited away to Syria. This sort of thing is all they need.

Also in fairness, it's worth mentioning the 911 conspiracy theories, which are at least as irrational as birtherism, if not more. However, the polling numbers on that have been a bit confusing. More liberals than conservatives accepted it, but the polls I've seen showed a smaller delta than one might expect. Moreover, it seems that the crowd which has continued to stick with it through waning popularity is the libertarians/Paulbots. Not really sure what to make of that one.