Increasing Assault Weapons in Criminal Hands

[her209]

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3919547

By JEFFREY KOFMAN
Nov. 27, 2007

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department is building up an arsenal of bigger weapons. Handguns and shotguns are no longer enough, and officers are being equipped with semiautomatic assault rifles instead.

Cpl. Paul Rubino of the sheriff's department had a matter-of-fact explanation for the upgrade, "All I know is that we should have the same firepower as the bad guys."

Watch Jeffrey Kofman's full report tonight on "World News With Charles Gibson" at 6:30 ET. This is part two of the two-part series "Officer Down."

His explanation is justified by multiple incidents. In September, a suspect wielding an AK-47 fired on Miami-Dade County police officers, killing one and injuring three. This month, a West Palm Beach gang member fired an AK-47, killing an 8-month-old baby.

Police departments from Danbury, Conn., to Dallas to Portland report that they are encountering more assault weapons and are arming their officers accordingly.

This surge of deaths stemming from semiautomatic assault weapons seems unnecessary. In 1994, President Clinton signed a law banning the sale of these weapons. But in 2004, President Bush and Congress allowed that ban to expire. Since then, Congress has made it illegal to keep nationwide statistics data on crimes committed with assault weapons.

But the city of Miami has its own data, which shows that last year, the police department seized 10 assault rifles. So far this year, it has seized 50.

Miami police Chief John Timoney said, "There's a need for Congress to step in here and pass some reasonable legislation that reduces the availability of these weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't have them."

Until that happens, the arms race between the criminals and the police will continue.

http://www.ktvu.com/station/14553769/detail.html

More Police Departments Implementing Assault Weapons Training

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- According to the latest FBI crime numbers, police in the Bay Area have a fight on their hands when it comes to reducing the number of murders, assaults and rapes. For a second year in a row, violent crime is up in San Francisco, rising by almost 550 incidents between 2005 and 2006.

In Oakland, violent crime skyrocketed by 1,870 incidents. To help crack down on this surge, more police are upgrading their firepower. A recent poll conducted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that all 20 departments randomly surveyed have either added weapons to patrol units, or have replaced firearms with military-style guns.

Our investigation found that San Francisco Police will soon be part of this trend. Next year, the police department will implement a patrol rifle program, where assault-style weapons will be standard issue for street cops.

The reason? Sergeant Steve Monina describes it as a more accurate tool that will give officers confidence to keep the streets safe. "You don't see the Marine Corps in Iraq walking around with handguns," Monina explained. "When street officers go after people who they think have guns, those can be dangerous situations, and they need the proper weaponry."

However, there is a downside to the weapons upgrade. When police wield a high-powered rifle, there's a higher probability of wounding an innocent bystander because bullets flying out of these guns can pierce walls.

What's more, police add that if the round misses the target, it could travel up to 3 miles unless it's stopped by something. Scott Knight of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said, "We need to worry all the time, every time we pull the trigger, where is that bullet going to go, and what's it going to pass through?"

This is one reason why police who take up bigger arms must be fully certified before they carry them out on the street. In San Francisco, officers must score 90% or better to pass the course.

Copyright 2007 by KTVU.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Excellent. Now I feel more secure knowing that not only the criminals have more assault rifles, so does the average cops as well.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: her209
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3919547

By JEFFREY KOFMAN
Nov. 27, 2007

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department is building up an arsenal of bigger weapons. Handguns and shotguns are no longer enough, and officers are being equipped with semiautomatic assault rifles instead.

Cpl. Paul Rubino of the sheriff's department had a matter-of-fact explanation for the upgrade, "All I know is that we should have the same firepower as the bad guys."

Watch Jeffrey Kofman's full report tonight on "World News With Charles Gibson" at 6:30 ET. This is part two of the two-part series "Officer Down."

His explanation is justified by multiple incidents. In September, a suspect wielding an AK-47 fired on Miami-Dade County police officers, killing one and injuring three. This month, a West Palm Beach gang member fired an AK-47, killing an 8-month-old baby.

Police departments from Danbury, Conn., to Dallas to Portland report that they are encountering more assault weapons and are arming their officers accordingly.

This surge of deaths stemming from semiautomatic assault weapons seems unnecessary. In 1994, President Clinton signed a law banning the sale of these weapons. But in 2004, President Bush and Congress allowed that ban to expire. Since then, Congress has made it illegal to keep nationwide statistics data on crimes committed with assault weapons.

But the city of Miami has its own data, which shows that last year, the police department seized 10 assault rifles. So far this year, it has seized 50.

Miami police Chief John Timoney said, "There's a need for Congress to step in here and pass some reasonable legislation that reduces the availability of these weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't have them."

Until that happens, the arms race between the criminals and the police will continue.

http://www.ktvu.com/station/14553769/detail.html

More Police Departments Implementing Assault Weapons Training

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- According to the latest FBI crime numbers, police in the Bay Area have a fight on their hands when it comes to reducing the number of murders, assaults and rapes. For a second year in a row, violent crime is up in San Francisco, rising by almost 550 incidents between 2005 and 2006.

In Oakland, violent crime skyrocketed by 1,870 incidents. To help crack down on this surge, more police are upgrading their firepower. A recent poll conducted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that all 20 departments randomly surveyed have either added weapons to patrol units, or have replaced firearms with military-style guns.

Our investigation found that San Francisco Police will soon be part of this trend. Next year, the police department will implement a patrol rifle program, where assault-style weapons will be standard issue for street cops.

The reason? Sergeant Steve Monina describes it as a more accurate tool that will give officers confidence to keep the streets safe. "You don't see the Marine Corps in Iraq walking around with handguns," Monina explained. "When street officers go after people who they think have guns, those can be dangerous situations, and they need the proper weaponry."

However, there is a downside to the weapons upgrade. When police wield a high-powered rifle, there's a higher probability of wounding an innocent bystander because bullets flying out of these guns can pierce walls.

What's more, police add that if the round misses the target, it could travel up to 3 miles unless it's stopped by something. Scott Knight of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said, "We need to worry all the time, every time we pull the trigger, where is that bullet going to go, and what's it going to pass through?"

This is one reason why police who take up bigger arms must be fully certified before they carry them out on the street. In San Francisco, officers must score 90% or better to pass the course.

Copyright 2007 by KTVU.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Excellent. Now I feel more secure knowing that not only the criminals have more assault rifles, so do the average cops do as well.

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

 

[Rainsford]

I think police SHOULD have easy access to more powerful weapons. A pistol is great for a number of reasons, but any time there is a real shootout, a rifle can be a nice thing to have. As the Sergeant in the article noted, Marines in Iraq don't walk around with only handguns. I don't think pulling out an assault rifle for a traffic stop is a good idea, but it's nice to have that option if necessary.

I don't, however, think it's a good solution for rising violent crime, because most of that isn't committed in front of cops. Making cops more formidable adversaries isn't going to prevent an assault, rape or murder, because presumably the criminal isn't planning on shooting it out with the cops in any case. A better approach would seem to be, in the short term, making sure citizens have the ability to defend themselves, and in the long term, attacking the root causes of crime.

The more interesting part of the article, I think, is the ban on keeping assault weapon stats. That's the first I've heard of that, and if it's true, that sounds a little shady to me. I can see no good reason for it, except a Congress trying to hide crimes committed with assault weapons to keep the ban unpopular. Not that crimes being committed with assault weapons justifies the ban, but at least let's have an honest debate about it.

 

[FallenHero]

The change has been happening ever since the north Hollywood shootout. These departments, IMHO, are lagging behind the times. I carry an AR in my squad everyday, as do many of the surrounding departments. The sheriff's office here carries mini-14s in the trunk. Why the media is blowing this up into some huge deal I have no idea. Shotguns are not the best weapon for the job anymore...active shooters have changed the game. Shotguns could not do the job effectively. This is hardly an arms race as the media wants to point out. Rarely are crimes committed with any sort of "assault" type weapon. Its the hunting weapons at distance im scared of and the small snub nose 38 at close range. The media and the IACP is useless when it comes to anything law enforcement or gun related.

 

[woodie1]

I think the police should have anything they need to protect the general public. I have never understood those who think we should hamstring our police forces in the war against ever violent criminals. Why train and pay a person to die for us if we aren't willing to give them what they need to do their job.

 

[Nebor]

More people are killed with hands and feet every year than with rifles. Assault weapons just aren't used in violent crimes. It's exceptionally rare.

I agree the police should have access to the same weapons as everyone else. That's why they should not be allowed to purchase post-1986 machine guns. :thumbsup:

The Miami police chief is an infamous anti-gunner. Cops want a chance to play army by carrying assault rifles, and they justify it by saying that criminals have them while at the same time getting them banned for regular, law abiding people.

 

[The Yeti]

LOL, Arms Race.... The BS is strong with this one. People will believe what ever the news tells them.

 

[Arglebargle]

Also, about the 'Marines don't use pistols' idea: I was reading a lot of after incident reports from Iraq, and one of the things that came up a lot was that pistols were being used extensively in fighting inside buildings. Speed of reaction, and small size were very much appreciated. Now there were a number of unhappy reports about their particular military issue sidearms, but they were tactically useful and effective.

Like most anyone, the police like getting extra fancy gear to play around with. And there may be situations or places where it is completely appropriate. But....

 

[Moonbeam]

Police should have nuclear weapons. A few shots fired in some major cities and the crime rate's sure to go down.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Don't you just love it when the media calls semi-auto weapons "assault rifles"?

And if we are mostly referring to magazine capacity (which can be had for a large number of weapons), I don't really want either side to be spraying large numbers of bullets around the neighborhood.

I would rather the police had something like an HK semi-auto hunting rifle chambered for .308 or a Remington in 30-06. Then train them to hit what they shoot at with each round. Supply them with ammo choices, FMJ for stopping vehicles, penetrating body armor and heavy cover, RN soft points for light cover, and HP for that absolute take down with a clear shot.

 

[Czar]

Its an open arms race that feeds on itself.

The population has knifes, some % of that population commit crimes with knifes.
The population gets a better defense against knifes, pistols, some % of that population commits crimes with pistols.
The population gets a better defense against pistols, shotguns, some% of that population commits crimes with shotguns.
.... semi autos
... full autos
... sharks with lasers

 

[Darwin333]

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: her209
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3919547

By JEFFREY KOFMAN
Nov. 27, 2007

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department is building up an arsenal of bigger weapons. Handguns and shotguns are no longer enough, and officers are being equipped with semiautomatic assault rifles instead.

Cpl. Paul Rubino of the sheriff's department had a matter-of-fact explanation for the upgrade, "All I know is that we should have the same firepower as the bad guys."

Watch Jeffrey Kofman's full report tonight on "World News With Charles Gibson" at 6:30 ET. This is part two of the two-part series "Officer Down."

His explanation is justified by multiple incidents. In September, a suspect wielding an AK-47 fired on Miami-Dade County police officers, killing one and injuring three. This month, a West Palm Beach gang member fired an AK-47, killing an 8-month-old baby.

Police departments from Danbury, Conn., to Dallas to Portland report that they are encountering more assault weapons and are arming their officers accordingly.

This surge of deaths stemming from semiautomatic assault weapons seems unnecessary. In 1994, President Clinton signed a law banning the sale of these weapons. But in 2004, President Bush and Congress allowed that ban to expire. Since then, Congress has made it illegal to keep nationwide statistics data on crimes committed with assault weapons.

But the city of Miami has its own data, which shows that last year, the police department seized 10 assault rifles. So far this year, it has seized 50.

Miami police Chief John Timoney said, "There's a need for Congress to step in here and pass some reasonable legislation that reduces the availability of these weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't have them."

Until that happens, the arms race between the criminals and the police will continue.

http://www.ktvu.com/station/14553769/detail.html

More Police Departments Implementing Assault Weapons Training

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- According to the latest FBI crime numbers, police in the Bay Area have a fight on their hands when it comes to reducing the number of murders, assaults and rapes. For a second year in a row, violent crime is up in San Francisco, rising by almost 550 incidents between 2005 and 2006.

In Oakland, violent crime skyrocketed by 1,870 incidents. To help crack down on this surge, more police are upgrading their firepower. A recent poll conducted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that all 20 departments randomly surveyed have either added weapons to patrol units, or have replaced firearms with military-style guns.

Our investigation found that San Francisco Police will soon be part of this trend. Next year, the police department will implement a patrol rifle program, where assault-style weapons will be standard issue for street cops.

The reason? Sergeant Steve Monina describes it as a more accurate tool that will give officers confidence to keep the streets safe. "You don't see the Marine Corps in Iraq walking around with handguns," Monina explained. "When street officers go after people who they think have guns, those can be dangerous situations, and they need the proper weaponry."

However, there is a downside to the weapons upgrade. When police wield a high-powered rifle, there's a higher probability of wounding an innocent bystander because bullets flying out of these guns can pierce walls.

What's more, police add that if the round misses the target, it could travel up to 3 miles unless it's stopped by something. Scott Knight of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said, "We need to worry all the time, every time we pull the trigger, where is that bullet going to go, and what's it going to pass through?"

This is one reason why police who take up bigger arms must be fully certified before they carry them out on the street. In San Francisco, officers must score 90% or better to pass the course.

Copyright 2007 by KTVU.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Excellent. Now I feel more secure knowing that not only the criminals have more assault rifles, so does the average cops as well.

Would you rather have those sworn to serve and protect, going into combat with inferior equipment and under geared?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: her209
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3919547

By JEFFREY KOFMAN
Nov. 27, 2007

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department is building up an arsenal of bigger weapons. Handguns and shotguns are no longer enough, and officers are being equipped with semiautomatic assault rifles instead.

Cpl. Paul Rubino of the sheriff's department had a matter-of-fact explanation for the upgrade, "All I know is that we should have the same firepower as the bad guys."

Watch Jeffrey Kofman's full report tonight on "World News With Charles Gibson" at 6:30 ET. This is part two of the two-part series "Officer Down."

His explanation is justified by multiple incidents. In September, a suspect wielding an AK-47 fired on Miami-Dade County police officers, killing one and injuring three. This month, a West Palm Beach gang member fired an AK-47, killing an 8-month-old baby.

Police departments from Danbury, Conn., to Dallas to Portland report that they are encountering more assault weapons and are arming their officers accordingly.

This surge of deaths stemming from semiautomatic assault weapons seems unnecessary. In 1994, President Clinton signed a law banning the sale of these weapons. But in 2004, President Bush and Congress allowed that ban to expire. Since then, Congress has made it illegal to keep nationwide statistics data on crimes committed with assault weapons.

But the city of Miami has its own data, which shows that last year, the police department seized 10 assault rifles. So far this year, it has seized 50.

Miami police Chief John Timoney said, "There's a need for Congress to step in here and pass some reasonable legislation that reduces the availability of these weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't have them."

Until that happens, the arms race between the criminals and the police will continue.

http://www.ktvu.com/station/14553769/detail.html

More Police Departments Implementing Assault Weapons Training

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- According to the latest FBI crime numbers, police in the Bay Area have a fight on their hands when it comes to reducing the number of murders, assaults and rapes. For a second year in a row, violent crime is up in San Francisco, rising by almost 550 incidents between 2005 and 2006.

In Oakland, violent crime skyrocketed by 1,870 incidents. To help crack down on this surge, more police are upgrading their firepower. A recent poll conducted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that all 20 departments randomly surveyed have either added weapons to patrol units, or have replaced firearms with military-style guns.

Our investigation found that San Francisco Police will soon be part of this trend. Next year, the police department will implement a patrol rifle program, where assault-style weapons will be standard issue for street cops.

The reason? Sergeant Steve Monina describes it as a more accurate tool that will give officers confidence to keep the streets safe. "You don't see the Marine Corps in Iraq walking around with handguns," Monina explained. "When street officers go after people who they think have guns, those can be dangerous situations, and they need the proper weaponry."

However, there is a downside to the weapons upgrade. When police wield a high-powered rifle, there's a higher probability of wounding an innocent bystander because bullets flying out of these guns can pierce walls.

What's more, police add that if the round misses the target, it could travel up to 3 miles unless it's stopped by something. Scott Knight of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said, "We need to worry all the time, every time we pull the trigger, where is that bullet going to go, and what's it going to pass through?"

This is one reason why police who take up bigger arms must be fully certified before they carry them out on the street. In San Francisco, officers must score 90% or better to pass the course.

Copyright 2007 by KTVU.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Excellent. Now I feel more secure knowing that not only the criminals have more assault rifles, so does the average cops as well.

Would you rather have those sworn to serve and protect, going into combat with inferior equipment and under geared?

Police misusing their weapons is something the public has to deal with on a regular basis. I don't think too many people have an issue with officers having heavier weapons in their vehicles if they are only being used in very specific situations (such as a standoff). What people seem to be concerned about is if/when officers start using these as their normal carry weapons. It may seem stupid now, but all it will take is an officer or two getting killed by one at a traffic stop with a standoff afterwards and every police department will be clamoring to issue them as carry weapons.

 

[palehorse]

Most police forces have always had access to heavier weapons, as it should be... so what's new here? what's the problem?

The only problem I see is the criminals being able to get their hands on them illegally.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Darwin333
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

I was always a big fan of...

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. For that matter, don't bring a knife to a knife fight, either.

The message? If you have to use force, you want it to be as UNfair for the other guy as possible. I don't think the police having semi-automatic rifles should be contingent on criminals having them, I think we're better off with a police force (or a public, for that matter) that is dramatically better armed than the criminals they are facing. The threat of completely overwhelming force can be a deterrent in a way that equal force might not be.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Arglebargle
Also, about the 'Marines don't use pistols' idea: I was reading a lot of after incident reports from Iraq, and one of the things that came up a lot was that pistols were being used extensively in fighting inside buildings. Speed of reaction, and small size were very much appreciated. Now there were a number of unhappy reports about their particular military issue sidearms, but they were tactically useful and effective.

Like most anyone, the police like getting extra fancy gear to play around with. And there may be situations or places where it is completely appropriate. But....

Sure, but they aren't JUST using pistols. The right tool for the right job, as they say.

 

[piasabird]

Well if the Cops cant manage to hit the criminals with a single shot from a pistol or a rifle, that just means even a larger hale of bullets to kill innocent civilians.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

I am sure after Bush and Repub. let the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expires in 2004, it's easier for criminals to get them legally.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

I am sure after Bush and Repub. let the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expires in 2004, it's easier for criminals to get them legally.

There are many incidences of shootouts and such using "assault weapons" during the ban. The AWB was a joke, it banned ridiculous things and let other things float. If you want to keep the ban to full-auto weapons, then do it. Even then, you're still talking about most of these weapons being semi-auto. Then what?

Criminals will always get guns. Look at Japan, you always see stories of the Yakuza having guns, yet citizens rarely can. You see stories of shootings by criminals everywhere in the world. Death by others means also is higher in those countries that ban guns, it just shifts.

Additionally, there is *one* reason why we have a right to have guns. If you look at all of the writings of the founding fathers, you can find that one reason. it is the reason why we have any freedoms at all, because those very people could and did have and use their guns. Many say that the democratic process should be more civilized and guns shouldn't be used. However, when the democratic process becomes corrupt, then the last resort is to remove corruption.

Leave guns alone.

 

[maddogchen]

criminals have AK-47s. many people on Anandtech forums have AK-47s. And you're worried about trained police having assault rifles?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

I am sure after Bush and Repub. let the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expires in 2004, it's easier for criminals to get them legally.

There are many incidences of shootouts and such using "assault weapons" during the ban. The AWB was a joke, it banned ridiculous things and let other things float. If you want to keep the ban to full-auto weapons, then do it. Even then, you're still talking about most of these weapons being semi-auto. Then what?

Criminals will always get guns. Look at Japan, you always see stories of the Yakuza having guns, yet citizens rarely can. You see stories of shootings by criminals everywhere in the world. Death by others means also is higher in those countries that ban guns, it just shifts.

Additionally, there is *one* reason why we have a right to have guns. If you look at all of the writings of the founding fathers, you can find that one reason. it is the reason why we have any freedoms at all, because those very people could and did have and use their guns. Many say that the democratic process should be more civilized and guns shouldn't be used. However, when the democratic process becomes corrupt, then the last resort is to remove corruption.

Leave guns alone.

Looking at countries around the world, it seems obvious that the problem with violent crime is driven by social and cultural problems, rather than driven by the availability of weapons. Japan has an almost complete gun ban for private citizens, and they have very little violent crime (with guns or anything else). Yet Switzerland has a ready availability of guns for almost all citizens, and they also have very little violent crime. England, which also bans guns, has an extremely high violent crime rate, even compared to the US. The murder rate in the United States is extremely high, but Switzerland's is lower than England's, so again, guns don't seem too closely correlated.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

I am sure after Bush and Repub. let the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expires in 2004, it's easier for criminals to get them legally.

Even the CDC came to the conclusion that the AWB had no measurable effect on gun crime.

It was a totally useless piece of feel good legislation.

 

[PrinceofWands]

One things for sure...if they dream up another pointless ban I'm going balls out to invest in high capacity mags, the weapons to be banned, etc. I know a bunch of people that made a KILLING doing that last time when high capacity magazine prices went up about 2000%.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Where did criminals get them? Legally or Illegally?

I am sure after Bush and Repub. let the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expires in 2004, it's easier for criminals to get them legally.

Even the CDC came to the conclusion that the AWB had no measurable effect on gun crime.

It was a totally useless piece of feel good legislation.

Kind of like the ban on magazines larger than 10 rounds? It expired a few years ago, but I remember thinking that it really wouldn't matter much to me if someone shot me 10 times or 17 times, I'd still probably be pretty dead.

I think bans on specific weapons are pretty silly, and as you said, more about having a feel good solution rather than a real one. The problem isn't that criminals are illegally getting the "wrong" weapons, it's that they are illegally getting weapons at all. Somehow I don't think some gang banger is going to get his AR-15 (or whatever) at the local gun store, even if it IS legal for him to do so. Legislation that attacks the illegal methods by which guns are obtained seems much more valuable to me. In particular, I like the customer limits some states have on gun purchases. I think my state, Maryland, might take it to the extreme...but overall I can't think of much reason beyond illegal resale that a person would have to buy several guns every month.