Income Tax Advocates: Look What I Found

[Dissipate]

Recently there was a thread about an alternative to the income tax, namely the national sales tax. In my discussion in that thread it became apparent that there are staunch advocates of the income tax in the name of progressive taxation. Well, I have bad news for income tax advocates...

Under today?s income tax system, tax evasion is a major, continuing and growing problem. Under the pressures of a much larger Internal Revenue Service (IRS), more burdensome information reporting requirements, increasingly stiff and numerous penalties, and a host of
legislative initiatives, the problem is getting worse. Based on IRS figures, tax evasion has increased by 67 percent during the most recent 11-year period for which data is published. As a percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), tax evasion has reached 2.0 percent in 1992 as compared to 1.6 percent in 1981. Tax evasion continues to amount to approximately 22 to 23 percent of all income taxes collected. (See table next page). And, these IRS figures do not include taxes lost on illegal sources of income.

Link

Hmm, I wonder why.

The MoneyPlatza
PLATZAGOLD(TM) MAESTRO DEBIT CARD allows convenient worldwide access to your e-currency. Redeem e-gold, e-Bullion, NetPay etc and have funds loaded onto your card by us within 10 hours.
You can use it to pay for goods at merchants wherever you see the Maestro logo, or to withdraw cash in your local currency at any ATM
machine worldwide displaying the Cirrus logo.

Link

So how does this work? Let's say someone sets up an e-gold account, (an online account that is basically digital gold) and has their boss put at least part of their pay in their e-gold account from their bosse's e-gold account. Then this employee gets a debit card from MoneyPlatza.com, ANOTHER offshore operation that takes their e-gold credits and converts it to U.S. dollars that are available directly from their debit card at practically any ATM.

Let's see what moneyplatza says about the benefits:

FAQ

1. What are the benefits of the PLATZAGOLD Debit Card?
With our debit card, you can redeem funds from your e-currency account and transfer them to your debit card account. You can then use this card to withdraw cash at any ATM or use it to pay for goods and merchandise at any Point of Sale (POS) system. It is a very tax efficient way to control your income, as the funds are kept offshore and you withdraw them locally in cash.

8. Are there any limitations with regards to the use of the PLATZAGOLD Debit Card?
Yes, there are. You can only withdraw $2500 cash (via an ATM) per day.

From terms of use:

Payment or Withdrawal Limits
The total monthly limit for cash withdrawal is US$ 80 000 per one card. If the card balance is greater than USD 80 000, the appropriate amount could be withdrawn in the next month. Fees are subject to change at anytime.

`Your account records are maintained offshore. There is no access to these confidential records. We reserve the right to uncover the informatin about the cardholder only if the card was used for fraud.`

The limits are $80,000 a month can be added to the card and $2,500 a day can be withdrawn, I think this would satisfy most millionaires. Let's see, I wonder what "tax efficient" means in the FAQ. I in no way condone tax evasion but anyone who thinks that the income tax will remain a viable way for the government to raise revenue is delusional.

 

[mfs378]

I agree that tax evasion is a serious problem, but I think we need to be pragmatic about the tax system.

It is huge and complicated, and there is no way it will be changed overnight.

I think it would be easier to make the current system work in a more efficient and fair manner.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: mfs378
I agree that tax evasion is a serious problem, but I think we need to be pragmatic about the tax system.

It is huge and complicated, and there is no way it will be changed overnight.

I think it would be easier to make the current system work in a more efficient and fair manner.

The current system is doomed even if it does become more efficient. Why? Because hiding your income is becoming easier and easier.

 

[mfs378]

There is also the issue of a tax code being 10's of thousands of pages long, replete with loopholes for whoever can afford lobbyists. A drastic simplification of the tax structure would go a long way, in my opinion. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but I can see no arguments against trying it.

I think calling an income tax doomed based upon the performance of the current system is a flawed postion.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: mfs378
There is also the issue of a tax code being 10's of thousands of pages long, replete with loopholes for whoever can afford lobbyists. A drastic simplification of the tax structure would go a long way, in my opinion. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but I can see no arguments against trying it.

I think calling an income tax doomed based upon the performance of the current system is a flawed postion.

The income tax is not doomed because of the performance of the current system, it is doomed because technology is enabling people to manipulate funds offshore with the click of a mouse.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX!

Forget the 10's of thousand of pages of tax codes. If you make this ____ then you pay this ____.

Ideally, income taxes should be abolished. It's funny how we pride ourselves on freedom and openly condemn communism/socialism, yet contribute and SUPPORT one of the most fundamental aspects of the two.

I don't know about you, but I don't like being an employee of the federal (, state, and local) gov't by force!

:|

 

[ReiAyanami]

if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

its when the corporate pull trix and go nutz. imagine if we have just taxed the enron and worldcom executives we'd have no deficit, cuz they stole like a gazillion dollars.

let martha stewart do all the insider trading she wants as long as she cuts in uncle sam 110%.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: ELP
FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX!

Ideally, income taxes should be abolished. It's funny how we pride ourselves on freedom and openly condemn communism/socialism, yet contribute and SUPPORT one of the most fundamental aspects of the two.

:|

The United States is closer to socialism then capitalism. I find it hard to believe that we "condemn" our own economic policy...

 

[Romans828]

Originally posted by: ELP
FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX!

Forget the 10's of thousand of pages of tax codes. If you make this ____ then you pay this ____.

Ideally, income taxes should be abolished. It's funny how we pride ourselves on freedom and openly condemn communism/socialism, yet contribute and SUPPORT one of the most fundamental aspects of the two.

I don't know about you, but I don't like being an employee of the federal (, state, and local) gov't by force!

:|

Saints be praised I agree with ELP 😉

 

[Ldir]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: mfs378
I agree that tax evasion is a serious problem, but I think we need to be pragmatic about the tax system.

It is huge and complicated, and there is no way it will be changed overnight.

I think it would be easier to make the current system work in a more efficient and fair manner.

The current system is doomed even if it does become more efficient. Why? Because hiding your income is becoming easier and easier.

This is wrong. Hiding your US income is becoming harder and harder. The IRS will continue to plug the holes and prosecute wealthy cheaters.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, You're claiming that the real WMD's are held by the offshore banking industry? Couldn't agree with you more- The Caymans will be a pushover compared to NKorea, and a lot more profitable, too...

Basic strawman argument, considering that Congress and the Executive could easily tighten up the rules concerning overseas banking, particularly corporate banking, which they have zero intention of doing, particularly given the current leadership. Tax havens are largely the creations of American and European bankers, they all have branches in places like the Netherland Antilles and the Caymans. They ARE the local economy....

Folks so inclined can find ways to cheat under any tax system- and that's obviously easier with large incomes from diverse overseas sources. They'll escape sales taxes the same way.

Interesting that during a period of time when the top rates were going down that the prevalence of cheating by those subject to such rates was going up- so much for patriotism and fair play among the wealthy...

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: ELP
FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX!

Forget the 10's of thousand of pages of tax codes. If you make this ____ then you pay this ____.

Ideally, income taxes should be abolished. It's funny how we pride ourselves on freedom and openly condemn communism/socialism, yet contribute and SUPPORT one of the most fundamental aspects of the two.

I don't know about you, but I don't like being an employee of the federal (, state, and local) gov't by force!

:|

Then move to a country where you don't pay income tax. I am fed up with selfish, greedy, hyprocritical a-holes whining about their taxes. You demand all the benefits of living here, but you don't want to pay the dues. You take advantage of the opportunities offered by our extraordinary physical and economic infrastructure, but you don't want to repay your fair share of the costs.

Uncle Sam needs a new Department of Bouncers. When some cretin tries to slip in without paying the cover charges, they bounce his butt to some third-world hell-hole.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

People who have benefitted more from this country and how it works should pay more taxes. You get this only when everyone is at a flat tax rate for ALL income. No doubt the system needs to be changed a bit, but sticking everyone with a consumption tax because the rich are evading their taxes is insane.

IMO, the ideal system would be something like 25% over the first $20,000 for singles, $40K for couples, plus $4k tacked on for each dependent, with what are current deductions added to that base as well, have it inclusive of ALL income (capitol gains, dividends, etc), and make it the ONLY tax the federal government can levy.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
People who have benefitted more from this country and how it works should pay more taxes. You get this only when everyone is at a flat tax rate for ALL income. No doubt the system needs to be changed a bit, but sticking everyone with a consumption tax because the rich are evading their taxes is insane.

IMO, the ideal system would be something like 25% over the first $20,000 for singles, $40K for couples, plus $4k tacked on for each dependent, with what are current deductions added to that base as well, have it inclusive of ALL income (capitol gains, dividends, etc), and make it the ONLY tax the federal government can levy.

There was a senator that suggested something like this. It was a largely revenue neutral plan, but it would put 150,000 irs employees out of work..

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Ldir

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: mfs378
I agree that tax evasion is a serious problem, but I think we need to be pragmatic about the tax system.

It is huge and complicated, and there is no way it will be changed overnight.

I think it would be easier to make the current system work in a more efficient and fair manner.

The current system is doomed even if it does become more efficient. Why? Because hiding your income is becoming easier and easier.

This is wrong. Hiding your US income is becoming harder and harder. The IRS will continue to plug the holes and prosecute wealthy cheaters.

Did you read the original post at all? Tax evasion is growing every year. How is hiding your income harder and harder?! I just provided a ton of evidence to the contrary. Read the post then make your statements.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: ELP
FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX! FLAT TAX!

Forget the 10's of thousand of pages of tax codes. If you make this ____ then you pay this ____.

Ideally, income taxes should be abolished. It's funny how we pride ourselves on freedom and openly condemn communism/socialism, yet contribute and SUPPORT one of the most fundamental aspects of the two.

I don't know about you, but I don't like being an employee of the federal (, state, and local) gov't by force!

:|

Then move to a country where you don't pay income tax. I am fed up with selfish, greedy, hyprocritical a-holes whining about their taxes. You demand all the benefits of living here, but you don't want to pay the dues. You take advantage of the opportunities offered by our extraordinary physical and economic infrastructure, but you don't want to repay your fair share of the costs.

Uncle Sam needs a new Department of Bouncers. When some cretin tries to slip in without paying the cover charges, they bounce his butt to some third-world hell-hole.

Its not a matter of them whining about it. Many do more than that, they evade. Tax evaders aren't going to read your speel about society and then say one day: "He's right, what I am doing is wrong.".

Uncle Sam has created a huge bureaucracy that is growing and trying to crack down but it isn't working. Tax evasion is still growing.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, You're claiming that the real WMD's are held by the offshore banking industry? Couldn't agree with you more- The Caymans will be a pushover compared to NKorea, and a lot more profitable, too...

Basic strawman argument, considering that Congress and the Executive could easily tighten up the rules concerning overseas banking, particularly corporate banking, which they have zero intention of doing, particularly given the current leadership. Tax havens are largely the creations of American and European bankers, they all have branches in places like the Netherland Antilles and the Caymans. They ARE the local economy....

Folks so inclined can find ways to cheat under any tax system- and that's obviously easier with large incomes from diverse overseas sources. They'll escape sales taxes the same way.

How could they tighten the rules about overseas banking? What are they going to do? Disconnect the Internet from the rest of the world? Its a losing battle and in between the transition to a more viable tax such as the NST people are going to take Uncle Sam and the rest of honest citizens for an @ss ride. That's why the transition needs to start NOW. Just look at the statistics, it is insane.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

As long as money is spent at the retail level it will get taxed. There is no way to control any other economic activities.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

As long as money is spent at the retail level it will get taxed. There is no way to control any other economic activities.

Yeah because coperations are so honest?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

As long as money is spent at the retail level it will get taxed. There is no way to control any other economic activities.

Yeah because coperations are so honest?

Enforcing retail sales tax is far easier than income tax. The rules are simple and most bussiness comply without issue.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

As long as money is spent at the retail level it will get taxed. There is no way to control any other economic activities.

Yeah because coperations are so honest?

Enforcing retail sales tax is far easier than income tax. The rules are simple and most bussiness comply without issue.

Of courses they would comply when sales tax is low but once you plan makes sales tax at 30 precent it would quickly become worth it start defruading the system. Just sell something and make it disappear from your inventory and chalk it up to shrinkage.

 

[b0mbrman]

The income tax should be abolished because there are loopholes in it?

Along similar lines, should murder no longer be outlawed because some killers get away with it?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
if the employer pays you in untraceable funds, then they can't take it off their profits. hence they would be paying 28.5% on your entire salary. which is close to 35% kinda.

That may be true, my scenario isn't 100% realistic probably but the real-life scenario would probably be similar. George puts X dollars into offshore account, George gets a debit card for offshore account, George goes around town buying stuff tax free.

How would a sales tax prevent tax fraud? Tax fraud is mainly done by people that get paid in cash otherwise it has to go thru a US bank. It would be just as easy for some one not to pay income tax as it is not to pay sales tax.

As long as money is spent at the retail level it will get taxed. There is no way to control any other economic activities.

Yeah because coperations are so honest?

Enforcing retail sales tax is far easier than income tax. The rules are simple and most bussiness comply without issue.

Of courses they would comply when sales tax is low but once you plan makes sales tax at 30 precent it would quickly become worth it start defruading the system. Just sell something and make it disappear from your inventory and chalk it up to shrinkage.

I wont disagree that excessive taxation will encourage people not to comply with taxes(of any kind). But that is what we have right now, high taxes and extremely excessive tax rules. There would significant cost saving in tax simplification.