In These Games, Death Is Forever, and That’s Awesome

[Chiefcrowe]

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/11/permadeath-dayz-xcom

 

[Martimus]

I think rogue-like is synonymous with permadeath, yet they didn't mention any of the big roguelike games. FTL is a good example of a very recent roguelike.

 

[thespyder]

Yes, and no. While I think it is great to have some sort of option (Ironman effectively), to make a game exclusively like that.... No. That is almost worse than fixed save points in a game where one single miss-step means you have to go back and replay the entire sequence again. Only now you have to go back and play the entire game up to that point again. And quite frankly there are whole sections of games that come out today which are tenuously worth playing through one time.

I'll play a game on Ironman after I have finished it once. But to have to invest 20+ hours only to reach a point close to the end and then restart is quite frankly beyond my capabilities to spend time at.

And people talk about a relic from an earlier time. There was a point where you got three lives and at the end of that the game ended. So Perma-death isn't "New and edgy", it is harkening back to that earlier time (IMHO).

Now making an MMO perma-death? I say Yay!!! Please do. See how many people grief or play power games when a group of lowers can gang up on you and kill your 60th level Uber Warrior (or whatever). I actually like that idea quite a lot. Might just revolutionize the MMO world.

 

[KaOTiK]

Perma death in some games can really add to the game and make the game excellent. One of my favorite ones was with the original Steel Battalion on the Xbox. If you didn't eject from your mech in time before it blew up your pilot died and you had to start over from the beginning of the game. It added to the whole simulation of being a pilot with the giant ass controller and pedals. Man I love that game, I need to set it up again (kept it and an original Xbox just for it )

 

[exar333]

Perma death in some games can really add to the game and make the game excellent. One of my favorite ones was with the original Steel Battalion on the Xbox. If you didn't eject from your mech in time before it blew up your pilot died and you had to start over from the beginning of the game. It added to the whole simulation of being a pilot with the giant ass controller and pedals. Man I love that game, I need to set it up again (kept it and an original Xbox just for it )

This. Loved SB!

 

[DaveSimmons]

I might enjoy permadeath if my game backlog wasn't so huge and if I had a lot more free time.

Being forced to replay the first part of a game over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over . . . .

. . . is just not my idea of fun. I'd rather move on to experiencing something new instead.

I'll replay a game that I enjoy to try different tactics, but during each play I want to know that I can keep moving forward.

 

[thespyder]

I might enjoy permadeath if my game backlog wasn't so huge and if I had a lot more free time.

Being forced to replay the first part of a game over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over . . . .

. . . is just not my idea of fun. I'd rather move on to experiencing something new instead.

I'll replay a game that I enjoy to try different tactics, but during each play I want to know that I can keep moving forward.

This.

Now, there are certain types of games. The kinds of games where the point isn't to finish. Strategy games like GalCiv for instance. But anything where the campaign mode is at least as important as the game play, make it an option. Not mandatory.

 

[JamesV]

For single player, offline games, perma death is fine.

For things like Diablo 2, when I lost my lvl 94 Sorceress because of lag, perma death sucks. First and last hardcore character I played.

Either way though, I tend to shy away from both types. Take my favorite games of all time, add perma-death, and they wouldn't be my favorites anymore; I'd probably not even complete a full game.

 

[Jodell88]

I totally enjoy The Binding of Isaac and Faster Than Light because of perma-death.

 

[thespyder]

For single player, offline games, perma death is fine.

For things like Diablo 2, when I lost my lvl 94 Sorceress because of lag, perma death sucks. First and last hardcore character I played.

Either way though, I tend to shy away from both types. Take my favorite games of all time, add perma-death, and they wouldn't be my favorites anymore; I'd probably not even complete a full game.

LOL. Man I feel bad for you.

But then to invest hundreds of hours in a medium where a single errant pulse can end your character. That just seems like asking for punishment.

 

[irishScott]

I like permadeath in online shooters (dead until the end of the round). It causes people to be more conservative and actually use strategy as opposed to just running through the rat maze spamming whatever.

Beyond that... it's cool as an option, but say you're playing a 30 hour game and you die 29.8 hours in at the very end of the finale, and have to start all over. That would suck for anyone who remotely values their time.

 

[kevinsbane]

LOL. Man I feel bad for you.

But then to invest hundreds of hours in a medium where a single errant pulse can end your character. That just seems like asking for punishment.

I lost a lvl 96 Amazon That sucked.

That's the point though... it's death. When you die, you don't get a do-over.

It's a kind of gambling, I guess. If you can never lose, you get bored more easily, and winning means less. If, however, you had a close brush with a permanent, unrecoverable death, but by your own skills managed to skirt it, there's an unbelievable rush of euphoria and elatement at having conquered it. Victory is sweeter because, if you hadn't won, you would have lost... forever. (not really, but close enough for video games) But you didn't lose. You won.

 

[Zenoth]

We can cover a lot of ground with this subject, it depends on so many conditions and types of games it's not even funny. Having permanent death isn't always good nor is it always bad, and sometimes it's there as an extra mode to consider if the player cares to try but isn't obliged to (such as "Hardcore" modes like in the Diablo games for example).

For games that deliberately want to be (and are) simulation-oriented and try to focus on so called "realism", then perhaps it's better fitting there, but sometimes it can also work well even if it's not based on simulation, such as for the STALKER series. Additionally, some games aren't lengthy or are literally free (F2P or some Indie games for example), and so depending on the length (well, rather its duration I should say) and sometimes the price of a game then a player might just not care so much about his character(s) dying permanently.

And, for some games it just wouldn't fit or would be exaggerated. Would you play a Mario Bros game with perma death? I wouldn't, that would be stupid. But would I play a STALKER game with continues? Well no... but I already have saved games to load from for a new attempt, although I might have forgotten to save earlier and I'd still have to start again from a much earlier point (which sometimes is about just as worst as an actual perma death would be). There's also some games trying to approach it differently and gives you a chance to do something about it before you die, while still not able to fight as well or not at all until you save yourself, or someone comes to help you.

For example, Left 4 Dead ("Player Down" state, you can't move and only rotate the camera very restrictively to shoot a little bit until someone comes to help, or you bleed to perma death for the whole match until the next map portion loads), Guild Wars 2 ("Down" state, either save yourself or wait until someone comes, although the consequences of dying where you fell are barely annoying at worst), Mass Effect 3's multi-player (another game with "Down" state, but at least in that case you're actually pretty much dead, you can't fight, can't do anything until someone has to come save your life, and if not certain specific enemies can sometimes bring instant death to you with a mini non-avoidable animation depicting your character's final moment at the hands of a Banshee impaling your gut and letting you fall dead on the ground, without the possibility to be brought back to life by a teammate).

There's been many ways to approach "challenge" in general, or just the subject of death/continues/saves in gaming over the decades. I think that overall the best "death" mechanism is one that fits the game type itself, or is "plausible enough" within the game's settings, context and environment. But I hate perma death or very punishing death or check point mechanisms (and the likes) in games for which it really wasn't necessary, but was done as such just for the sake of adding supposed "challenge", when it fact it just adds to frustration and nonsense.

 

[Scooby Doo]

No thank you.... I've played plenty of games back in the 90's that didn't have any saves. NO THANKS

 

[darkxshade]

A permadeath MMO would be quite interesting.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Games where it's more about seeing how far you can get than actually winning permadeath is great. Dungeons of Dredmor comes to mind although they added in a non-permadeath option at some point. Sometimes a game just organically functioning well makes for good fun, and permadeath fits into that well.

 

[thejunglegod]

A permadeath MMO would be quite interesting.

Don't you think there are enough QQers in the genre already?


Posted from Anandtech.com App for Android

 

[Mandres]

A permadeath MMO would be quite interesting.

Have you seen Realm of the Mad God? I'm not sure it qualifies as a bona fide MMO, but it's definitely similar and perma-death is a big part of it. It's worth playing if you haven't:

http://www.realmofthemadgod.com/

 

[EDUSAN]

If the game encourages replayability even though you died and restarted or if you finished it... then i like it... but i would hate to have every game with that system.

I love playing Binding of Isaac. I played it a LOT when i got it and i still play it from time to time and i still unlock new items/achievements even though i might not do it to the end
The randomness of each playthrough + advance a bit somehow even though i die (new achievement/item/whatever) its nice, so i dont feel like really wasting my time dying over and over

 

[acheron]

Before the rights passed to Turbine and we got LOTRO, there was going to be a Middle-earth/Lord of the Rings MMO with permadeath. This was late 90s/early 00s, around Everquest time. I want to say Sierra was associated with it, at least as publisher.

Anyway, permadeath's not a fit for all games, but I think in the right game, if it's designed well, it can be excellent. FTL is a good example. Or, you know, Nethack. It's almost certainly a bad idea in heavily story-driven games though.

 

[irishScott]

A permadeath MMO would be quite interesting.

Apparently it's going to be a significant part of Star Citizen.

 

[Genx87]

Ultima online has a perma death mechanism. If you died so many times in a given set of time you could not rez. But when the game first came out they didnt have a mechanism to accept or deny rez requests. And people griefed other players by killing then rezing, killing, then rez until they were perma dead. Oops

 

[thespyder]

There is a Persistent world in NWN2 where the 'Death penalty' is increasingly lethal (pun intended) but can be avoided through having your friends Raise you. Honestly, I would LOVE perma-death to be implemented on that server as it is the perfect environment. If you die and can have someone raise you, you can come back. If not, you are SOL.

The problem is that there are too many older players with established characters who don't want them to suddenly be grieffed to death. With that having been said, I might just have to go over and post on their site the idea of Perma-death (again). Because that would be cool. And it is the perfect environment for it (IMHO).

But yeah, as other said, there are settings where it is appropriate and some that merely are not at all suited to that type of game play. So game developers should be careful about when/where they choose to implement.

 

[scooterlibby]

Remember the original Ninja Gaiden on NES, where when you lost against one of the final bosses it knocked you back several levels instead of the beginning of the current level? And those levels were hard!! I hated that.