In the market for a new 19" LCD for gaming... Need some help deciding

[003]

Hi, I am in the market for a new 19" LCD for gaming, web browsing, and MABEY the occasional DVD, however gaming is the top priority. This will be a fairly long post, so bear with me. Now I originally had my heart set on the VX922, because of the 2ms response time. But I have been doing a lot of research, and I now see, that response time is not everything and some companies flat out lie about it. I now have my heart set on something with a true 8-bit panel. 262,144 versus 16,777,216 colors is a pretty big difference. I can tell a huge difference between 16-bit color and 24/32-bit color on my CRT.

Also, I have a question regarding LCD's and frame rates. On a CRT, it can only display a framerate as high as the refresh rate. Now I happen to have a particularly high end CRT (LaCie electron19blueIV), and it supports some very high refresh rates. I got it on purpose because the flickering at lower refresh rates really bothers me. It supports 120Hz @ 1024x768, 100Hz @ 1280x1024 and 85Hz @ 1600X1200. I play all my games at 1024x768, so naturally I am used to seeing them at 120FPS. I can't stand UT2004 at anything under 100FPS, the movement simply dosn't feel fluid. I know that LCD's dont operate with a real "refresh rate", because instead of using an electron gun, the entire frame is displayed on the screen at once. As I understand it, the refresh rate in windows with a LCD is just a dummy value that you need to satisfy the operating system. This leaves me confused about the maximum framerate an LCD can display. Does any body know a formula to find out? Or is there something I got totally wrong here?

Now, back on topic. After I learned that response time wasn't everything, I set out looking for an 8-bit LCD. I was torn between the Samsung Syncmaster 970P and the Viewsonic VP930B -- until I stumbled across these forums and discovered that neither of these monitors are 8-bit. Found on this thread:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1819499

Originally posted by: mauri
I didn't know which to believe either, I've just been so pissed about this thing for a while.

So I decided to call local ViewSonic Contact Center and they were quite surprised to hear someone asking about this, but after little waiting a really helpful guy in the customer service did some research for me (called to some tech guy in Germany) and confirmed to me that the VP930 is really a 6bit+2bit FRC monitor. After that even he didn't recommend that monitor for me.

They told me that the reason they are calling it 8-bit monitor, is that in most of the countries (atleast here in europe) the legislative rules don't require ViewSonic/manufacturer to tell the customers that the 8-bit in the VP930 is actually a 6bit+2bit FRC. So they can market as a 8 bit monitor.

I'm propably going with the 970P now, I can't find any other good alternatives at this price point.

edit: typos.

I don't think I am interested in either of these monitors anymore. What do you guys suggest I get? It must meet this criteria:

1. 19"
2. 1280x1024 native resolution
3. True 8-bit panel
4. At most, 8ms g2g response time
5. Support for DVI-D
6. $450 USD or less

Thanks for taking the time to help me, I really appreciate it.

 

[Extelleron]

Well, if you want to spend $450..... I'd recommend the Dell 20.1 in screen @ 1600x1200:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/Prod...94&cs=19&l=en&Page=productlisting.aspx

But if you dont want 20.1" /1600x1200, then I'd say:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/Prod...11&cs=19&l=en&Page=productlisting.aspx
Dell 19" LCD @ 1280x1024 for $339.

Hope this helps.........

 

[003]

Umm. That first one dosn't even list the response time, and I highly doubt that either of them are 8-bit panels. I've heard NEC makes very good LCD's, however they make a TON of them, so I can't really look at them all. Do any of them meet my criteia?

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: 003
Umm. That first one dosn't even list the response time, and I highly doubt that either of them are 8-bit panels. I've heard NEC makes very good LCD's, however they make a TON of them, so I can't really look at them all. Do any of them meet my criteia?

NEC's are really good I think, but extremely expensive. And honestly I dont know about this "8-bit panel" crap, all I know is the Dell's there are good LCD's.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 003
1. 19"
2. 1280x1024 native resolution
3. True 8-bit panel
4. At most, 8ms g2g response time
5. Support for DVI-D
6. $450 USD or less

Thanks for taking the time to help me, I really appreciate it.

Regretably, there is no such LCD whatsoever that would match all that unless the VP930b is indeed 8-bit. The closest thing is the LG L2000C which is 20" and true 8-bit.

Originally posted by: 003
This leaves me confused about the maximum framerate an LCD can display. Does any body know a formula to find out? Or is there something I got totally wrong here?

There is no dummy value because there is still a pixel clock involved. The LCD's DSP always interpolates down to 60 Hz no matter what you choose but it may feel smoother anyway. The crystals themselves actually operate at 60 Hz (somewhere between 56 Hz and 64 Hz according to TFTcentral.co.uk) so that's a necessity. My mouse still feels smoother at 75 Hz so I'll leave it at that (maybe crystals actually support 75 Hz now but that's not what I've read).

While in Windows, you say you can tell a difference between 6 bit (no dither) and 8 bit (no dither), but can you tell a difference between 6 bit+frame_rate_control and true 8-bit? You may want to check it out in a store and reserve judgment until then. (The whole point of the dithering/frame rate control is to trick your eyes.) Main difference between bad and good LCDs is contrast, and the VP930b/970P do deliver there and they would satisfy the rest of your requirements.

The update of the LCD image is still capped by refresh rate. It's just that the means by which it physically transitions the image does not coincide with the refresh rate whatsoever. The refresh rate just governs when the crystals are to start twisting (changing color). It sounds like you have pretty high demands so I wouldn't settle for anything less than an LG L2000C or NEC 20WMGX2.

 

[LordofBrews]

I have a Samsing 970P and I can honestly tell you that it is one of the greatest LCD's out there especially for gaming. Awesome picture and no ghosting whatsoever. You would not be disappointed. Why are you so hung up on true 8 bit?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: LordofBrews
I have a Samsing 970P and I can honestly tell you that it is one of the greatest LCD's out there especially for gaming. Awesome picture and no ghosting whatsoever. You would not be disappointed. Why are you so hung up on true 8 bit?

Everybody makes a big deal out of it, but I'd say the people who thought they had an 8-bit panel but actually have a 6-bit one, wouldn't even know it. The contrast/dynamics makes a huge difference in the image. If my VP930b is any indication, there are a couple dark gray tones that I can see the faintest sign of static in and about three tones where it's obvious (but a defect according to ViewSonic).

 

[003]

Originally posted by: LordofBrews
I have a Samsing 970P and I can honestly tell you that it is one of the greatest LCD's out there especially for gaming. Awesome picture and no ghosting whatsoever. You would not be disappointed. Why are you so hung up on true 8 bit?

I guess you could call me a perfectionist.

Originally posted by: xtknight
It sounds like you have pretty high demands so I wouldn't settle for anything less than an LG L2000C or NEC 20WMGX2.

Funny you mention the L2000C -- I was actually considering it, the only problem is the price, and it will be very big. I might go for this one if there isn't anything else. The 20WMGX2 is WAY out of my acceptable price range. I've got a question about the L2000C, how does it do at lower resolutions, like 1280x1024 or 1024x768?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 003

Originally posted by: xtknight
It sounds like you have pretty high demands so I wouldn't settle for anything less than an LG L2000C or NEC 20WMGX2.

Funny you mention the L2000C -- I was actually considering it, the only problem is the price, and it will be very big. I might go for this one if there isn't anything else. The 20WMGX2 is WAY out of my acceptable price range. I've got a question about the L2000C, how does it do at lower resolutions, like 1280x1024 or 1024x768?

My guess is that scaling would be quite decent since that LCD is high-end in all other aspects. You'd want to run at 1280x960 (4:3 ratio like 1600x1200) if you were going with a 1280 resolution. In NVIDIA settings, you have a choice between having the video card doing the scaling or having the monitor do it.

 

[003]

1024x768 is also 4:3, correct? Where is that option in the nvidia drivers? I've never needed it before. What is generally better, having the video card do it or the monitor? And how is this monitor in the ghosting department?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 003
1024x768 is also 4:3, correct? Where is that option in the nvidia drivers? I've never needed it before.

It's in the screen resolutions and refresh rates->advanced timings section and then "scaling". 1024/768 = 1.33. 4/3 = 1.33. So yeah, 1024x768 is a 4:3 aspect ratio.

What is generally better, having the video card do it or the monitor? And how is this monitor in the ghosting department?

I don't know what is most often better. That's something you'd have to check that out for yourself. My guess is that the LG L2000C's monitor scaling will be better than the 7800GT's, but that's just a wild guess. I'd tell you which looked better on my VP930b but the options in my NVIDIA control panel seem to be broken at the moment for some reason.

Available scaling options (see Digital Flat Panel section): http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_6.html

The LG L2000C should be close to the NEC 20WMGX2 when it comes to ghosting (very little). It's pretty much the fastest you can get out of any LCD. I'm speculating on the LG L2000C, but it is based off very similar electronics as the 20WMGX2. Here's a review of the LG L2000C: http://www.biosmagazine.co.uk/rev.php?id=443

 

[003]

Thanks, I think I'll go with the L2000C.

 

[kmmatney]

Originally posted by: 003
Umm. That first one dosn't even list the response time, and I highly doubt that either of them are 8-bit panels. I've heard NEC makes very good LCD's, however they make a TON of them, so I can't really look at them all. Do any of them meet my criteia?

The Dells are 8-bit panels, at least the 2001FP is an 8-bit panels with 16 ms response time. The 2005FPW is definately 8-bit, 12 ms response.

The LG L2000C looks pretty good, although a little pricey.

Its difficult to tell whther panels are 8-bit or not. One thing to look for is the viewing angle. Monitors with extemely high viewing angles will not be TN panels, so they will usually be 8-bit MVA or IPS panels. An example is this display:

http://www.sceptre.com/Products/LCD/Specifications/spec_x20g_NagaIII.htm

which can be purchased at Costco:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...rodid=11097928&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

Its an 8-bit display. Not as good a brand as NEC, but purchasing from Costco is pretty safe. If you don't like it you can return it to any Costco for full refund, even on shipping. Costco also sells the Dell 2005FPW (8-bit, 12 ms)

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...rodid=11105920&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

 

[tm101]

Sorry for the double-post, but I don't know how to set a link to a specific post here:

Actually the german service line also told me that it is "not 8 Bit", but without telling me what it is then. I can tell you that it definitely is not pure 8 bit, because I used an 8 bit VP191 before. On pure 8 bit panels there is only ONE setting at which it can display all 16.7 mio. colors, every change of contrast or color-settings will reduce the number of colors being displayed (most notable seen in increased banding).

I was the one who suggested that it might be 8 bit + FRC just like Eizo uses, but it may as well be 6 bit + FRC. Whatever it is it works very well and can display all 16.7 mio. colors, not just 16.2 mio. All 256 shades of grey and the basic colors red, green and blue are displayed. And even better, in contrast to a pure 8 bit display you can lower the contrast or any colors without losing any of those 256 shades, they just become darker but the total number stays the same. Only when raising contrast above 70% you will lose colors, because all the lightest tones are replaced by white then (you can't go lighter than white, so that's normal). That means that gradients are always smooth, not matter what setting! Unfortunately there are some defect units out there that show very very heavy banding once you change contrast-settings. If yours shows such a behavior, have it replaced, 'cause banding should only be mild.

BUT there are some drawbacks! First of all I also had to return several monitors before getting a good one. My first two had very serious issues with flickering colors in certain color regions. Since the third one had a dead pixel (great dead pixel policy by Viewsonic!) and the fourth one was a used unit with a scratch on the surface I have seen a total of 5 units of this monitor. ALL of them feature some kind of flickering in some of the very darkest colors. The first two units were a complete mess concerning that, but the next three only show very mild flickering with only one single color being affected most. Also only grey, green and yellow colors are visibly affected. Several users here have reported about that and Viewsonic had admitted that it is a known problem. So if it's a real problem with your unit then ask for replacement. My first unit also lacked all the darkest shades of green, but all others did not show that behavior. The second one had unbearable problems with almost everything, and the third one showed a very notable crystaline effect whenever something was moving on screen. So Viewsonic seems to have some bigtime problems with their quality assurance.

There is another issue with this series which showed up on ALL units. You cannot really use the manual color settings. Once you change any of the color-channels red/green/blue by only one click (no matter if up or down) the whole channel will be boosted by appr. 11%. The boost will vanish one you change contrast by just one click. So the only way to manually set colors is to:

- reduce contrast by 11%
- go to manual color settings, lower ALL colors channels by one click first (so that they are all boosted)
- chose your desired color-settings
- increase contrast by 11% again

By the way, the PerfectView software is the same as Portrait Displays' Pivot Pro coupled with Image Tune. Unfortunately it does not run well with newer video-cards like my 7800GT (hangs the system). That's too bad, because it offers auto-pivot when you flip the screen and is said to offer profiles for different color settings (so you can switch between reading mode and gaming mode and such).

 

[tm101]

Originally posted by: xtknight
There is no dummy value because there is still a pixel clock involved. The LCD's DSP always interpolates down to 60 Hz no matter what you choose but it may feel smoother anyway. The crystals themselves actually operate at 60 Hz (somewhere between 56 Hz and 64 Hz according to TFTcentral.co.uk) so that's a necessity. My mouse still feels smoother at 75 Hz so I'll leave it at that (maybe crystals actually support 75 Hz now but that's not what I've read).

Not all monitors do that, some display true 75 Hz and Viewsonic can even go as high as 85 Hz. Problem is the crystal reactivity, because for 60 Hz you "only" need 16.6 ms, while for 75 Hz you need 13.3 ms. So 75 Hz might show more smearing of colors, but for PAL video it's still preferable (25 frames/s). Also it depends on the model, take the VP191 for example. At 60 Hz it shows heavy overdrive ghosting (white shadow in front of moving objects), but at 75 Hz overdrive behaves differently so that it's in fact quite a good compromise of speed and ghosting. The VP930 on the other hand is generally slower than the VP191 but shows alot less ghosting from the beginning, there is only a very small difference between 60 Hz and 75 Hz as far as that is concerned.