In search of the Liberal mindset

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Here's my take CW. Most Americans like our New Deal ?mixed economy?, and its track record in producing *broad based* prosperity is undeniable. From almost free educational to business opportunity it was all brought to you by the long reign of democrats in the 20th century. RR even loved Roosevelt. I really think many on the right, like Bush, also love these things..CATO goes as far to call him socialist but I don't agree. Basically I think most Republicans are Democrats of yesterday.

Democrats now, in my view, stand for abortion, outlawing guns, and to some shoving thier values down your/your kids throat (my two daddy books). The right has played these like a fiddle to win, fact is most americans like thier guns, most americans hate abortion (until they get prenant) and most americans are religious (this faith is what helped the democrats in days past push thier social programs). Really the dems have lost the battle because they have no weapons the bear other than waaaay non-mainsteam ideals. But the old dems have won the war.

I forgot taxes. Never ever ever say you are going to raise taxes unless you can prove a convincing benefit to doing it.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Here is one guys take on what the LEFT should do...

The problem for progressives is that bad ideas beat no ideas, every time. Progressives haven't come up with anything fresh in a generation. So let's be clear. Policy initiatives are "action that communicates." Let me give you some examples. We'll start with the tame stuff, and move to some really radical ideas -- that you can sell. [The cheap labor cons don't shy away from proposing "hard sell" ideas. Why should we?]

The Full Employment Initiative. No progressive has come up with a meaningful anti-poverty measure since Lyndon Johnson's Job Corps. And we do a lot of braying about poverty. Try this on for size. One word -- central to our defense of social democratic mixed economies. That word is "infrastructure." And brother, do we need some. We're talking roads, bridges, new schools, port facilities -- secure against terrorists, doncha know -- sewers, waste disposal, environmental clean-up, you name it. We've got plenty of work to do. And hey, we've got plenty of people who need work. Guess what. We're going to put them to work. Does it sound like "workfare?" Kind of. But "workfare" is bullshit. It basically replaces meager welfare benefits with meager wages. Not much of an improvement -- though I guess we get something for our money. My plan puts people to work at a "living wage" -- ten bucks an hour [as of today] plus healthcare and educational benefits. Who do we put to work? Everybody who shows up and wants a job. [We can impose some accountability, too. We pay well. But you have to show up, and put in a day's work -- or we will can your ass, and make you ineligible for rehire for some period of time.]
Watch the "free market" at work. Just like that, we have "full employment." Not only that, the wage scale just went up -- way up. Why? Government infrastructure is the "employer of last resort." The pay is good, and so are the benefits. In other words, Walmart's coulees would rather have one of these jobs -- which means Walmart had better raise its pay scale and the benefits it offers. No more 30 hour a week employees, with no benefits, earning 6 bucks an hour. That's a thing of the past. Expensive? It will pay for itself. How? The increased wage scale increases the tax base. You might pay for it without raising tax rates at all. And even if there is some cost to it, hey, we're getting infrastructure -- which creates economic opportunity. In other words, it's not a "give away." It appeals to "Joe Sixpack" who doesn't mind giving a guy a "hand up" -- if there is some accountability in there somewhere. It doesn't hurt that a rising "wage floor" boosts his own paycheck. Meanwhile, the rising wage scale, boosts disposable income on the bottom, creating a demand driven economic boom -- further expanding the tax base by the way..

How will the cheap-labor cons respond? They will fight it like tigers. They don't want the wage scale going up. They don't want full employment. They don't want "bottom up" prosperity. What they want is "cheap labor." What they want is power and control in a corporate oligarchy. What they want is the "Argentinization of America." Opposing this intiative will prove it --putting them right on the spot.

The Energy Independence Intiative. Energy independence is such a "no brainer" I never have understood why Democrats don't make this their "centerpiece." What's the initiative? An "Apollo mission" level project to develop solar and other renewable energy technology. Why solar? Everything else creates greenhouse gasses. Solar power -- and other similar renewables -- also creates individual energy independence, not just national energy independence. Solar and development of other similar renewables also has the virtue of being opposed by the Republicans. You see, they like "oil dependency." Their friends in the oil business basically get a "piece of the action" on virtually everything you do that is fueled by oil -- which is damn near everything you do. That's power baby. And you know how the cheap labor cons are about power. Renewable energy breaks their monopoly. There is no good reason not invest in this technology. It is clean. It will become cheap -- the point of massive R&D into it. It is limitless. It gets us out of the middle east, completely -- not such a bad idea at this point. There is nothing not to like about it -- which makes Republican opposition to it just absurd. Which raises a rather basic, fundamental question about their whole position. Why do they oppose such an obviously necessary policy? There's no good answer -- which is why you push them onto the ropes, and beat them bloody with their stiffnecked opposition. Will they oppose it? Bet on it. It's a "can't lose" proposition.


The Small Business Tax Relief Initiative. Self employed business owners who aren't incorporated pay 15% of every dollar they earn in Social Security taxes. It's called the "self-employment" tax. Oh, it isn't every dollar. They stop paying it at $89,000 [or somewhere around there]. This means that start-up small businesses -- we're talking tradesmen and building subcontractors -- pay taxes out the ass. Who did this to them? Why, Ronald Reagan and the Republicans when they "saved" Social Security in the mid-eighties. Meanwhile, these tradesmen are now all ditto monkies, mostly behind the taxes they pay -- which Limbaugh and company blame on the Democrats. We need to give them "tax relief" by eliminating the "employees share" of FICA taxes on qualified small busineeses -- and pay for it by eliminating the $89,000 cap. Which would also solve any "solvency" problems, and lower the FICA tax burden on the middle and working class. Republicans might not oppose this one. Like I said, a lot of those tradesmen are ditto monkeys.

The Urban Homestead Act. This is actually a "give away." Just like the original homestead act -- which is why I named it this. You take publicly owned housing projects and deed them over to inner city residents on condition that the residents live in them for seven years, and improve them. This makes owners out of inner city residents, giving them a source of personal capital, and also giving them a personal financial stake in the health and prosperity of their neighborhoods. Watch how fast they chase those drug dealers out their neighborhoods. While you're at it, enact tax incentives to give smalltime slumlords an incentive to sell rather than rent.

The Manufacturing Revitalization Initiative. Want to stop outsourcing? Here's one way to do it. Require that publicly traded corporations have a defined percentage of their stock owned by the employees. Many companies already do this. The call them "ESOP's" or Employee Stock Ownership Plans [or something like that]. Your goal is to eventually have 51% ownership -- which spells "employee control." Owners don't vote themselves out of a job. Neither do they vote themselves "coulee wages" -- though they might make a short term sacrifice of pay and benefits for the long term health of the company. Either way, the phenomenon of working years for a company, only to be thrown away and left with nothing, is all over. It only applies to publicly traded corporations, by the way. "Closely held" mom and pop businesses, and entrepreneurial start ups don't need to worry about it.

Federal Reserve Reform. Turn the Federal Reserve Banks into true banks, authorizing them to deal directly with consumers. Why? To cut out the middle man -- private banks -- and lower everyone's interest payments. It also creates a potentially huge revenue stream in the form of consumer interest on home mortgages, car payments and credit card debt -- not to mention commercial loans and what they presently receive from private banks. This new revenue stream replaces some of our tax revenues, lowers consumers balance of payments by cutting their taxes, and doesn't result in any budget deficit. Some might call this a backdoor way to nationalize the banks. I deny it. [What do banks produce, by the way? Nothing. They are nothing but privatized bureaucracies, deciding who gets access to capital and who doesn't -- and siphoning off a cut of virtually every business transaction in the country. Banks aren't "private enterprise," they are economic infrastructure.]

While we're at it, we need to enact Congressional control over the Fed. Some will denounce "injecting politics" into the Fed's decision making. Bullshit. The Fed makes political decisions everyday that mostly favor the financial industry. Be ready to educate people about this. The allegely "apolitical" decisionmaking of the Fed is all part of the ideology that "economic forces" are "scientific." More bullshit. The Fed makes decisions everyday that affect the very economic air we breathe. Whose bright idea was it to take such fundamental decision making away from representatives of the people? Answer: JP Morgan and his finance capital cronies. Get it?


http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/index.html
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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So called conservatives have set up a straw man they call "liberal". Naturally since they define what this "liberal" is, it's pretty easy to declare victory over it.

True liberalism and conservatism, most people have some of both, are both honorable positions. One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.

Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option.

Liberalism doesn't mean increasing reliance on government versus private enterprise. This misinterpretation comes from the fact that for certain kinds of change, government is the most logical place to affect the change. Like building the interstate highway system for example, a very liberal proposal from President Eisenhower.

But the efforts to promote private entry into the space business, switching away from government to private enterprise, is just as liberal an idea.

 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
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Zebo

In reply to the post your post by "RON PAUL". That's an interesting read. While there are many liberal aspects to what is being said there, ultimately the underlying message is very far right. Much of what he says about what is wrong with the current situation I would agree with, but not however with the solution. The Constitutional Republic he yearns for so much I would hazard to say is an ideal that works only for a small country, probably not one comprising almost 300 million people, and even "back in the day" when government was closer to this idea it never was there truly, just like any political ideal. I very much fear that such a system would be infinitely worse than what's in place now despite the lofty ideals it expounds. Communism looks and sounds like a wonderful idea on the face of it, but it has yet to show itself to be a viable alternative.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Tom, that's just foggy thinking... and a major reason the Libs of today won't gain any ground. Basically, your attitude is that any new idea or change is "liberal". In other words, anything good is a liberal idea (and give a pretty weird interpretation to history). Right. So Lincoln was a liberal, Teddy Roosevelt's trust busting was liberal, Eisenhower's interstates was liberal, and Bush's social security is liberal. No wonder the Left thinks conservatism is so bad... if I thought Conservative meant simply resistant to any change or new idea than I'd hate them too.

By mixing the non-political ("I'd like a liberal portion of ham please") and political, the whole issue is obliterated. Modern political Conservatism is based on a complex system of principles, concepts, and values... just like Liberalism of old. The intellectual leaders of Conservatism in the mid-20th century used the word as a reaction to Liberalism, which wanted a fairy-tale socialist paradise. The Right wanted to "CONSERVE" the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, hence "Conservatism".


 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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.The Right wanted to "CONSERVE" the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, hence "Conservatism"

Now it's the supposed conservative who would do away with traditional legal protections. I miss my true conservative friends. Not many left. It's all about supporting the Republicans, their war, and their wallet now. True conservatives would be railing about the limiting of justice. They would want to hold Presidents of any party accountable, not making new excuses when the old justifications are proved false. The President's desk would still have bucks stopping there. Well, all things must come to an end.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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I'm not so sure. There is no such thing as "true conservatism", especially the notions the Left puts forth (and the center sometimes buys into) about conservatives. What's a true conservative? A populist-minded America First Pat Buchanan type? The Christian Coalition? The McCain/Arnold/Rudy moderate wing? The free minds and free market Reason Magazine/CATO institute type? The NeoCons?



 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Tom, that's just foggy thinking... and a major reason the Libs of today won't gain any ground. Basically, your attitude is that any new idea or change is "liberal". In other words, anything good is a liberal idea (and give a pretty weird interpretation to history). Right. So Lincoln was a liberal, Teddy Roosevelt's trust busting was liberal, Eisenhower's interstates was liberal, and Bush's social security is liberal. No wonder the Left thinks conservatism is so bad... if I thought Conservative meant simply resistant to any change or new idea than I'd hate them too.

By mixing the non-political ("I'd like a liberal portion of ham please") and political, the whole issue is obliterated. Modern political Conservatism is based on a complex system of principles, concepts, and values... just like Liberalism of old. The intellectual leaders of Conservatism in the mid-20th century used the word as a reaction to Liberalism, which wanted a fairy-tale socialist paradise. The Right wanted to "CONSERVE" the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, hence "Conservatism".


Not at all. I didn't equate change with good, you added that. Sometimes not changing is good. I'm not mixing the political meaning with the non-political meaning.

And all the examples you give are examples of liberalism. And you definition of conservatism and the Constitution are completely without basis. It's an example of the kind of demagoguery that I find disgusting.

Another liberal idea, desegregating the military. Did that weaken the Constitution ? I would argue it strengthened it because everything we can do to make the beautiful philosophy of the Constitution into concrete reality demonstrates why those ideas are so powerful.

It's the same reason that waffling on how we treat those "detainees" is weakening us more than it is hurting them.


edit- oh yea, I don't think in terms of "libs", just what ideas I think are good and which ones are bad.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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"One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.... Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option."

I'm sorry Tom, but I don't think you know a lot about political history and ideologies. The above statement sounds like a techie trying to explain something out of his realm of expertise. Granted, if I let the Left and mainstream media misinform me over years, I wouldn't know any better either. Please skim through the writings of major conservative intellectuals/leaders of the last 50 years. Check out orgs like Cato, Heritage, American Enterprise Institute and the Federalist Society.

Those are conservative groups, and nowhere will you find notion of "We don't want change." The very term "ideology" implies a body of thought, ie. principles, concepts, and ideals. To sum up conservative ideology as "pro-status quo" is embarassing to anyone with a political science background. The old expression "Know thy enemy" is true, but it's very evident the general Left does not... and we are seeing the results.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
"One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.... Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option."

I'm sorry Tom, but I don't think you know a lot about political history and ideologies. The above statement sounds like a techie trying to explain something out of his realm of expertise. Granted, if I let the Left and mainstream media misinform me over years, I wouldn't know any better either. Please skim through the writings of major conservative intellectuals/leaders of the last 50 years. Check out orgs like Cato, Heritage, American Enterprise Institute and the Federalist Society.

Those are conservative groups, and nowhere will you find notion of "We don't want change." The very term "ideology" implies a body of thought, ie. principles, concepts, and ideals. To sum up conservative ideology as "pro-status quo" is embarassing to anyone with a political science background. The old expression "Know thy enemy" is true, but it's very evident the general Left does not... and we are seeing the results.

You know, I wouldn't be so condescending if I were you. Yes, we get it, you think you are some brilliant political science genius. And yet, for some reason you constantly lower yourself to making overly broad, often incorrect statements about the entire left while trashing those who do so when talking about the right.

Look at this very post I quoted. You are "embarassed" when the conservative ideology is so crudely summed up, yet your final sentence lumps all the liberals together with the person you are quoting, simply because he's an easy target, so you can attack the "general left" by proxy.

If I remember correctly, you are a junior high school teacher (right?). If so, perhaps this explains your patronizing attitude. But we're not a bunch of your students, save it for the classroom and maybe we can have more adult discussions, ok?
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Yeah that's fine... I never said I was the most diplomatic person. I understand this forum isn't condusive to dissertations, and we all generalize and simplify to a degree. But when I keep getting smashed over the head with "Conservatism is being against new ideas" then eventually I have to say something.

At least I said "the general Left" in a small attempt to not be all-inclusive. I really believe most Liberals have started believing their own propaganda, and don't seriously understand the depth and range of conservative ideology. They've succumbed to their own slogans of "religious freaks," "bigots," and "no change." This might be one reason why they have been losing political ground.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Yeah that's fine... I never said I was the most diplomatic person. I understand this forum isn't condusive to dissertations, and we all generalize and simplify to a degree. But when I keep getting smashed over the head with "Conservatism is being against new ideas" then eventually I have to say something.

At least I said "the general Left" in a small attempt to not be all-inclusive. I really believe most Liberals have started believing their own propaganda, and don't seriously understand the depth and range of conservative ideology. They've succumbed to their own slogans of "religious freaks," "bigots," and "no change." This might be one reason why they have been losing political ground.

As to your first point, I agree that "conservatism is being against new ideas" isn't exactly a good description. And as for the rest of it, you may have an interesting point there (a problem I believe might be shared to almost the same extent by the right). It's no secret that people are divided more so than they used to be. And one of the reasons people in general are often so divided is the overuse of broad (and incorrect) generalizations. I also think the right is guilty of this as well, but they seem to have attracted more followers (at the moment) in spite of this.

My only point was that you tend to slam everyone over the head with your ideas like the people are silly children who need to be talked down to. I know you don't think of yourself as the most diplomatic person, but I think people tend to dismiss your ideas because of the way you present them. I have found myself doing it a number of times. And like I said, you have some interesting ideas (even if I don't agree).

Edit: One thing I'm wondering about though. You seem to view the slide into propaganda as a leftie problem, but I notice it just as much on the right. Is there some reason you think the left is having more problems with it than the right? I might agree that the left is seeing more of a problem with it due to the relative size of the groups being targetted vs accepting those generalizations (attacking Christians is never a smart move from a political standpoint, for example), but I think the right is just as guilty as the left of poorly definining the other side.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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The bottom line is, both sides propagandize and always have. The problem with the Left is their propaganda pisses off more people than it converts! (Thank the "Elites ;))

Of course I think the Right's propaganda is closer to truth, but regardless of what I think, they have become better at getting their message to the people who matter. The conservative right does a much better job of feeding the media beast facts and arguments that make their case... On the Left-wing side of the aisle, they've been asleep at the wheel. For a long time the only leftist orgs were puny, radical groups that nobody took serious. Only recently has the Left put together some high-end think tanks like the Progressive Policy Institute (centralist) and the American Majority Institute (liberal-- and taking doublespeak to a new level with that name).

Maybe they will build an effective machanism for disseminating liberal ideas to the public and the media. I doubt it, because they think they've been ineffective because of faulty marketing and communications... but I tend to think it's because they're ideas generally stink. Anyhow, it will take time for the Left to build a policy network that can match conservative groups, never mind if people will buy their message.

Spurred by the Reagan Revolution, conservatives have achieved a gradual dominance of think tanks, magazines, talk radio, and cable TV. The intellectual capital for that dominance has been fueled by what think tanks have been pouring out in thoughtful pieces that have been gradually accepted by other people. The amazingly simple explanation is that the Right's ideas have been winning in the "Marketplace of Ideas."





 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
The bottom line is, both sides propagandize and always have. The problem with the Left is their propaganda pisses off more people than it converts! (Thank the "Elites ;))

Of course I think the Right's propaganda is closer to truth, but regardless of what I think, they have become better at getting their message to the people who matter. The conservative right does a much better job of feeding the media beast facts and arguments that make their case... On the Left-wing side of the aisle, they've been asleep at the wheel. For a long time the only leftist orgs were puny, radical groups that nobody took serious. Only recently has the Left put together some high-end think tanks like the Progressive Policy Institute (centralist) and the American Majority Institute (liberal-- and taking doublespeak to a new level with that name).

Maybe they will build an effective machanism for disseminating liberal ideas to the public and the media. I doubt it, because they think they've been ineffective because of faulty marketing and communications... but I tend to think it's because they're ideas generally stink. Anyhow, it will take time for the Left to build a policy network that can match conservative groups, never mind if people will buy their message.

Spurred by the Reagan Revolution, conservatives have achieved a gradual dominance of think tanks, magazines, talk radio, and cable TV. The intellectual capital for that dominance has been fueled by what think tanks have been pouring out in thoughtful pieces that have been gradually accepted by other people. The amazingly simple explanation is that the Right's ideas have been winning in the "Marketplace of Ideas."

I agree to some extent, but I think you're using the wrong language and terms. The left and right aren't two very small groups that try to attract the vast majority of people who are some form of moderate. The simple fact is that together, conservatives and liberals make up slightly over half of the US population.

Yes, they are both fighting for the moderate support, but conservativs appear to be winning in the marketplace of ideas, as you put it, for the very simple reason that there are more conservatives than liberals. This would appear obvious, I suppose, and in line with what you said. But I think there is an important difference between winning over a majority and having a majority to begin with. The current climate seems to be one in which liberals are still better at winning over the moderates and other undecideds, but conservatives can still win because they have a larger base to begin with.

Now obviously I'm just arguing semantics, the conservatives have managed to get a majority, it doesn't matter how they did it. Except, as you said, the left isn't as good at getting out their message. Look at home many people throw around the word "liberal" as some kind of insult. It's the last thing most politicians want to be called. Yet the political opposite, being a conservative, is a flatterning and positive thing to be labeled. It's all about marketing, and the left has plenty of room for improvement. I disagree with you that their ideas are sh!t to begin with, I think most people don't know what their ideas are.

Which leads to an interesting situation. The left, with their poor marketing (compared to the image wizards on the right), has still managed to capture a majority of moderates. With some work, which seems to be happening as we speak, I think the left is capable of expanding on their control of the moderate section of politics, while conservatives seem to be moving towards a more right agenda. I think the problem is that liberals realize what they need to do, 2004 was a real turning point from their point of view. Conservatives, on the other hand, seem to have reacted like you and see 2004 as an embracing of their ideas and principles on a fundamental level.

Sorry, I got a little wordy there, so I'll just sum it up like this. I think the left is starting to and will realize that they will win by attracting more moderates, even if all they do is get their message out a little better. While the right seems to view their area of strength as coming from their supporters on the right, implying that a move further to the right would strengthen their position. After all, they won and all that. But I can see the right losing their position in the center as a result of both their actions and the actions of the left.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
"One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.... Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option."

I'm sorry Tom, but I don't think you know a lot about political history and ideologies. The above statement sounds like a techie trying to explain something out of his realm of expertise. Granted, if I let the Left and mainstream media misinform me over years, I wouldn't know any better either. Please skim through the writings of major conservative intellectuals/leaders of the last 50 years. Check out orgs like Cato, Heritage, American Enterprise Institute and the Federalist Society.

Those are conservative groups, and nowhere will you find notion of "We don't want change." The very term "ideology" implies a body of thought, ie. principles, concepts, and ideals. To sum up conservative ideology as "pro-status quo" is embarassing to anyone with a political science background. The old expression "Know thy enemy" is true, but it's very evident the general Left does not... and we are seeing the results.


The world is well populated with people and organizations who will latch onto a positive label, like "conservative" has been marketed as, and take it as their own, and then to proceed to advocate any position they feel like. That doesn't make them truly "conservative".

True conservatism is like I described it, resistance to change, or in the case of the delusional, returning to some version of the past that did not ever exist, or even farther out there, returning back to some preceived natural law, like applying a "survival of the fittest" rationale for why the poor are just getting what they deserve.

As far as the Bush social security proposal, which is premature for me to call it Bush's, but I think you know what I mean, the plan to divert part of the social security tax to private accounts; if you don't think it's a radically liberal concept to collect taxes for the purpose of capitalizing private enterprise, I mean what is the difference between this policy and the nationalization of private property that occurs in socialist and communist governments ?

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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"As to your first point, I agree that "conservatism is being against new ideas" isn't exactly a good description."


Who said "conservatism is being against new ideas" ?


I sure didn't say that. The word "change" and "idea" aren't interchangeable. It can be just as an original an idea, and require the same level of thought and judgement, to look at the options available and decide not to change, as it does to take the opposite view.

In fact in stressful circumstances, the option of not acting is often overlooked, the sense that something should be done is a normmal reaction, but not always the best response.

 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Somewhere along the line, things changed. I'm fascinated by the endless string of editorials and links from the left-wing google-mongers here, because the attitude of today's liberal seems vastly different than the attitude of yesterday's liberal wingnuts from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. I guess the only way for them to become a power in the marketplace of ideas was to sell out. That worked for a while... but it's becoming painfully obvious that the gig is up because they have no ideological base to stand on. (Hence the political decline of liberalism in the past 10-20 years).

Whereas the crusading spirit that advocated a planned society, and talking in terms of abstract principles, theories, and noble ends was the norm, today modern leftists concern themselves with single, concrete-bound, range-of-the-moment projects and demands without regard to the larger context, costs, or consequences. Notice the same hardened Libs continuously posting links that supposedly "prove a point"... but that's the problem. They're all pragmatic, extremely narrow evaluations of a singular situation. "Bagdad Police Chief Killed" and So-and-So lectures Bush" etc....

Such a strategy may win a few brownie points here-and-there with some people. But what is never developed is the old-fashioned ideological framework. This is the Catch-22 the Left is in today. They can abandon the broad social reforms of their predessesors (because most people will reject the philosophical foundation outright), but eventually their asymmetrical strategy to "smuggle" this society into welfare statism by means of single, concrete, specific measures, enlarging the power of the government a step at a time, never permitting the whole of these steps to be summed up into principles, never permitting their direction to be identified or their underlying base to be exposed crumbles and fails... just as their political influence has deteriorated recently.

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't, and it's almost sad to see them spinning their wheels so furiously in a dead-end road to nowhere. They went from getting their idealistic machinations skewered 50 years ago, to a guerilla campaign of pragmaticism that saw their polices fall short and be rejected today. So much failure, no wonder they tend to be neurotic types ;)

Basically, they are doomed to repeat their past frustrations and will continue to collapse. During the cold war, they proclaimed their love for mankind while being bored by the rivers of blood pouring from the Soviet Union and China. Ranging from intellectual evasion to glowing tribute towards Communists, they pointed their little barbs at the US for reasons of "injustice," "exploitation," "repression," and "persecution." Today, they are no different. They pour out range-of-the-moment, pragmatitic arguments (as evidenced here on P&N) against the USA, while generally remaining silent -and in most ways oblivious to- the nature of our enemy. The more things change, the more things stay the same... once again doomed to be on the wrong side of history.

Of course, you miss an important detail as well: There is nothing "Liberal" about the modern Liberal. The modern liberal really did come around in the 30's and was particularly well expressed in Franklin Delano Roosevelt. However, what many people fail to realize is that these people weren't actually Liberals anymore, they had become enamoured of Socialism.

The founding fathers can safely be described, in Dictionary definition terms, as "Liberals" in the classical sense of the word. In their day, though, to be Liberal meant that you believed man should be free to worship according to his own conscience (or not at all), and that the government's purpose was to "restrain men from injuring one another but leave them otherwise free to pursue their own industry and improvement."

So while your post is darn decent, you did miss a ah heck of a detail :)

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
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Originally posted by: judasmachine
Some of the same things can be said about any group that isn't currently sitting on top. As always the real success will come when everyone realizes the truth is always in the middle. Black and white is an artificial creation. Lib or Con, it doesn't matter as long as you come together in the middle.

The truth isn't "always in the middle", though. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's at the left, sometimes it's on the right. NO ONE has yet shown themselves to have a monopoly on the truth, nor have anyone shown themselves to be perfectly able to find the truth at all times.

Jason
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Right Dragon, but I would argue that the two aren't remotely connected. Classical Liberalism was derived from the new Enlightenment ideas about human liberty. Modern political liberalism has nothing to do with that, so although they share the same word, the meanings are quite different. It's like me describing the United States as a "liberal democracy" -which it is- but knowing it has nothing to do with late 20th century political liberalism. Using such terms can easily confuse joe-shmoe... and judging from the way some people use (and define) liberal and conservative, I don't think we need any more of that.

If anything, strains of individualist conservatism and libertarianism are the descendents of classical liberalism. I think modern political liberalism is a little harder to decipher because of its ideological breakdown within the last 30 years (re: OP), but I'd have to say that its roots seem to come mainly from the reform liberal/democratic socialist areas.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,879
10,690
147
Originally posted by: Tom
Originally posted by: cwjerome
"One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.... Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option."

I'm sorry Tom, but I don't think you know a lot about political history and ideologies. The above statement sounds like a techie trying to explain something out of his realm of expertise. Granted, if I let the Left and mainstream media misinform me over years, I wouldn't know any better either. Please skim through the writings of major conservative intellectuals/leaders of the last 50 years. Check out orgs like Cato, Heritage, American Enterprise Institute and the Federalist Society.

Those are conservative groups, and nowhere will you find notion of "We don't want change." The very term "ideology" implies a body of thought, ie. principles, concepts, and ideals. To sum up conservative ideology as "pro-status quo" is embarassing to anyone with a political science background. The old expression "Know thy enemy" is true, but it's very evident the general Left does not... and we are seeing the results.


The world is well populated with people and organizations who will latch onto a positive label, like "conservative" has been marketed as, and take it as their own, and then to proceed to advocate any position they feel like. That doesn't make them truly "conservative".

True conservatism is like I described it, resistance to change, or in the case of the delusional, returning to some version of the past that did not ever exist, or even farther out there, returning back to some preceived natural law, like applying a "survival of the fittest" rationale for why the poor are just getting what they deserve.

As far as the Bush social security proposal, which is premature for me to call it Bush's, but I think you know what I mean, the plan to divert part of the social security tax to private accounts; if you don't think it's a radically liberal concept to collect taxes for the purpose of capitalizing private enterprise, I mean what is the difference between this policy and the nationalization of private property that occurs in socialist and communist governments ?
Brilliant post, Tom.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Brilliant. Forget those groups and people who call themselves conservative! Bah! True conservatism is like how YOU described it: resistant to change... there aint no system of ideas, no principles and values, no thoughts on how power in society ought to be organized, no ideas derived from the view of individual and social human nature! Of course not!

Man, all this time I thought conservatism had elements of a philosophical base, that was action/planned oriented dealing with complex economics and politics, which lead to a "best possible world." And to think, all those so-called conservative policymakers and think-tanks out there blowing smoke because their whole system of thought can be summed up as "resistant to change." You truly are brilliant Tom!
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Brilliant. Forget those groups and people who call themselves conservative! Bah! True conservatism is like how YOU described it: resistant to change... there aint no system of ideas, no principles and values, no thoughts on how power in society ought to be organized, no ideas derived from the view of individual and social human nature! Of course not!

Man, all this time I thought conservatism had elements of a philosophical base, that was action/planned oriented dealing with complex economics and politics, which lead to a "best possible world." And to think, all those so-called conservative policymakers and think-tanks out there blowing smoke because their whole system of thought can be summed up as "resistant to change." You truly are brilliant Tom!


I haven't said the groups you mention don't exist, I am saying that they are misusing the word conservative to describe themselves.

The word "conservative" has definitional meaning in the realm of politics, or maybe I should say it used too. It isn't, or it shouldn't be, misused as a trademark for a particular set of beliefs that don't fit the definition of the word.

Likewise, the same groups that call themselves "conservatives", have misused the word "liberal" to create a quasi-fictional opponent. This is not a new concept, creating a made up opponent, or associating false attributes to real people, as a device for promoting a particular agenda.

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: Tom
Originally posted by: cwjerome
"One believes change will improve some aspect of society, one thinks the status quo is the best policy at the moment at least.... Take social security- Bush's plan to change it is actually a liberal idea, leaving it the way it is is the conservative option."

I'm sorry Tom, but I don't think you know a lot about political history and ideologies. The above statement sounds like a techie trying to explain something out of his realm of expertise. Granted, if I let the Left and mainstream media misinform me over years, I wouldn't know any better either. Please skim through the writings of major conservative intellectuals/leaders of the last 50 years. Check out orgs like Cato, Heritage, American Enterprise Institute and the Federalist Society.

Those are conservative groups, and nowhere will you find notion of "We don't want change." The very term "ideology" implies a body of thought, ie. principles, concepts, and ideals. To sum up conservative ideology as "pro-status quo" is embarassing to anyone with a political science background. The old expression "Know thy enemy" is true, but it's very evident the general Left does not... and we are seeing the results.


The world is well populated with people and organizations who will latch onto a positive label, like "conservative" has been marketed as, and take it as their own, and then to proceed to advocate any position they feel like. That doesn't make them truly "conservative".

True conservatism is like I described it, resistance to change, or in the case of the delusional, returning to some version of the past that did not ever exist, or even farther out there, returning back to some preceived natural law, like applying a "survival of the fittest" rationale for why the poor are just getting what they deserve.

As far as the Bush social security proposal, which is premature for me to call it Bush's, but I think you know what I mean, the plan to divert part of the social security tax to private accounts; if you don't think it's a radically liberal concept to collect taxes for the purpose of capitalizing private enterprise, I mean what is the difference between this policy and the nationalization of private property that occurs in socialist and communist governments ?
Brilliant post, Tom.


I assume you are perhaps being sarcastic as to the bolded part ? I framed it as a question because I would like to hear from so called advocates of private property rights and free markets, why it is a good policy to have mandatory public ownership, even if it's only a percentage of the overall ownership, of the private capital market ?

For example, if Congress decided the Federal government should buy 10% of the stock market, I think most could see that as a kind of nationalization, completely at odds with the concept of private property.

But if instead Congress MANDATES that say 10% of MANDATORY social security taxes are to be used for the same purpose..what is the difference ?

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I think it's something to consider when proposals are made that might have vast unintended consequences.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
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This is not a new concept, creating a made up opponent, or associating false attributes to real people, as a device for promoting a particular agenda.

You said it brother. Now take a long look into that mirror.

It shocks me that non-conservatives somehow think they know conservativism better than the conservatives who make it. Believing that conservatism is pro-status quo (or simply resistant to change) only serves to expose some hideous ignorance. But than again, it's the same ignorance that's gotten them into their current predicament... RE the OP.