In pictures: War in Chechnya

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: Aelius
Actually it's the Pentagon that planed to fly planes into buildings as a contingency. So said an internal document. It was written long before 9/11.

As for what i said I'm simply pointing out that no pictures of attackers were shown in the building and Russia didn't produce any for some time according to the article I read.

As I said take that to mean what it says and not what it doesn't.

There is video shot by attackers during the seige and over 700 survivors, I don't know how one article with questionable sources and conspiracy theory can beat that. There is also one attacker that survived and confessed. And there is a video from Shamil Basaev, where he accepts responsibility for attack and explains how it was planned and names everyone who participated. You can still find that on www.kavkaz.org.

I can find no such videos even using Google and that site doesn't work. Spelling?

As for 1 guy confessing you gota be sh!ting me. Russia is big on using torture to get confessions and regularly do it.

The article I read simply points out there's no conclusive evidence provided that Chechens were the actual attackers. It's not refuting the actual attack.

Video shot of guy's who look like Chechens is not proof. Identifying them is. Good luck considering the FSB does that and the FSB is the one most likely responsible for blowing up the apartments in Moscow.

Read my earlier post with the massive article. It's an eye opener.

I wouldn't trust Putin and his FSB if they told me snow was white. Those fvckers are exactly what I think is wrong with the world and its leaders. They continually try to manipulate nations through leadership. Murderers every last one of them.

Prime example. Last Hungarian President elected into office... turns out he was a fvcking officer in the Cold War era Hungarian inteligence agency and was a known Soviet party member "Part Tag". Part Tag means Party Member.

What happend? The President was forced to resign.

The guy replacing him? Another one of those Part Tag fvckers and he is on his way out too.

So much for my nation of birth joining NATO and the EU as legitimate Democracy. It's a Hypocrisy.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about. These people are responsible for selling out their own people throughout the Soviet occupation of Hungary by spying on and arresting those who speak like you and I. They also had extensive connections and only those who were part of the Part Tag and their children were allowed to attend University.

I can say without a doubt that my mom "was" the smartest person I ever known (she passed away). She knew more about Math, Biology, Science, and History then any of my teachers and professors. She was forced to go to a community college.

They also had a black list which I'm sure they still have. That list includes people whom are potential enemies of the state. Guaranteed that everyone in my family is on that list.

However sitting here in Canada I'm confident enough to state that one of my very few family members I know of was head of the Hungarian inteligence agency in the 30s and 40s. He died shortly after the Hungarian revolution against the Soviets. BTW thx CIA for that one.

These Part Tag members are responsible for shipping off hundreds of thousands of Hungarians after WWII to Siberia. Bunch of mass murderers.

Today? They are selling off large parts of the country and giving it to Russian and foreign firms. They recently sold an entire factory and 50,000 people lost their jobs. This was partly why the first President I mentioned was forced to resign. It was all found out.

I don't trust these people to tell me the sky is blue. There's too much conflicting information coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. Mostly thanks to these fvcks and the FSB.

I just wanted to explain why I think in the train of thought that I do.

There is a method to what you may see in me as madness.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: Aelius
I can find no such videos even using Google and that site doesn't work. Spelling?

As for 1 guy confessing you gota be sh!ting me. Russia is big on using torture to get confessions and regularly do it.

The article I read simply points out there's no conclusive evidence provided that Chechens were the actual attackers. It's not refuting the actual attack.

Video shot of guy's who look like Chechens is not proof. Identifying them is. Good luck considering the FSB does that and the FSB is the one most likely responsible for blowing up the apartments in Moscow.

Read my earlier post with the massive article. It's an eye opener.

I wouldn't trust Putin and his FSB if they told me snow was white. Those fvckers are exactly what I think is wrong with the world and its leaders. They continually try to manipulate nations through leadership. Murderers every last one of them.

Prime example. Last Hungarian President elected into office... turns out he was a fvcking officer in the Cold War era Hungarian inteligence agency and was a known Soviet party member "Part Tag". Part Tag means Party Member.

What happend? The President was forced to resign.

The guy replacing him? Another one of those Part Tag fvckers and he is on his way out too.

So much for my nation of birth joining NATO and the EU as legitimate Democracy. It's a Hypocrisy.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about. These people are responsible for selling out their own people throughout the Soviet occupation of Hungary by spying on and arresting those who speak like you and I. They also had extensive connections and only those who were part of the Part Tag and their children were allowed to attend University.

I can say without a doubt that my mom "was" the smartest person I ever known (she passed away). She knew more about Math, Biology, Science, and History then any of my teachers and professors. She was forced to go to a community college.

They also had a black list which I'm sure they still have. That list includes people whom are potential enemies of the state. Guaranteed that everyone in my family is on that list.

However sitting here in Canada I'm confident enough to state that one of my very few family members I know of was head of the Hungarian inteligence agency in the 30s and 40s. He died shortly after the Hungarian revolution against the Soviets. BTW thx CIA for that one.

These Part Tag members are responsible for shipping off hundreds of thousands of Hungarians after WWII to Siberia. Bunch of mass murderers.

Today? They are selling off large parts of the country and giving it to Russian and foreign firms. They recently sold an entire factory and 50,000 people lost their jobs. This was partly why the first President I mentioned was forced to resign. It was all found out.

I don't trust these people to tell me the sky is blue. There's too much conflicting information coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. Mostly thanks to these fvcks and the FSB.

I just wanted to explain why I think in the train of thought that I do.

There is a method to what you may see in me as madness.

Well, what can I say, your personal bitterness towards old USSR regime of the 60s and 70 is admirable, but that doesn't confirm that this is how things are going on in Russia today. Back in the USSR if you wanted to be anybody you needed to join the Party, same was true for Hungarian People's Republic. Look how much success independent candidates have in the US elections.

As far as Kavkaz.org or kavkaz-center.org, it might be closed at this time by government of the country where server resided for affiliation with terrorist groups. Spelling is correct, if it ever pops out, it will be under that name.
Interviews and photos of survivors and attackers were in September issue of Newsweek. And about 1 surviving attacker, even if he was tortured, his testimony is just a small insignificant part of the whole evidence.


Basaev
more

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: Aelius
I can find no such videos even using Google and that site doesn't work. Spelling?

As for 1 guy confessing you gota be sh!ting me. Russia is big on using torture to get confessions and regularly do it.

The article I read simply points out there's no conclusive evidence provided that Chechens were the actual attackers. It's not refuting the actual attack.

Video shot of guy's who look like Chechens is not proof. Identifying them is. Good luck considering the FSB does that and the FSB is the one most likely responsible for blowing up the apartments in Moscow.

Read my earlier post with the massive article. It's an eye opener.

I wouldn't trust Putin and his FSB if they told me snow was white. Those fvckers are exactly what I think is wrong with the world and its leaders. They continually try to manipulate nations through leadership. Murderers every last one of them.

Prime example. Last Hungarian President elected into office... turns out he was a fvcking officer in the Cold War era Hungarian inteligence agency and was a known Soviet party member "Part Tag". Part Tag means Party Member.

What happend? The President was forced to resign.

The guy replacing him? Another one of those Part Tag fvckers and he is on his way out too.

So much for my nation of birth joining NATO and the EU as legitimate Democracy. It's a Hypocrisy.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about. These people are responsible for selling out their own people throughout the Soviet occupation of Hungary by spying on and arresting those who speak like you and I. They also had extensive connections and only those who were part of the Part Tag and their children were allowed to attend University.

I can say without a doubt that my mom "was" the smartest person I ever known (she passed away). She knew more about Math, Biology, Science, and History then any of my teachers and professors. She was forced to go to a community college.

They also had a black list which I'm sure they still have. That list includes people whom are potential enemies of the state. Guaranteed that everyone in my family is on that list.

However sitting here in Canada I'm confident enough to state that one of my very few family members I know of was head of the Hungarian inteligence agency in the 30s and 40s. He died shortly after the Hungarian revolution against the Soviets. BTW thx CIA for that one.

These Part Tag members are responsible for shipping off hundreds of thousands of Hungarians after WWII to Siberia. Bunch of mass murderers.

Today? They are selling off large parts of the country and giving it to Russian and foreign firms. They recently sold an entire factory and 50,000 people lost their jobs. This was partly why the first President I mentioned was forced to resign. It was all found out.

I don't trust these people to tell me the sky is blue. There's too much conflicting information coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. Mostly thanks to these fvcks and the FSB.

I just wanted to explain why I think in the train of thought that I do.

There is a method to what you may see in me as madness.

Well, what can I say, your personal bitterness towards old USSR regime of the 60s and 70 is admirable, but that doesn't confirm that this is how things are going on in Russia today. Back in the USSR if you wanted to be anybody you needed to join the Party, same was true for Hungarian People's Republic. Look how much success independent candidates have in the US elections.

As far as Kavkaz.org or kavkaz-center.org, it might be closed at this time by government of the country where server resided for affiliation with terrorist groups. Spelling is correct, if it ever pops out, it will be under that name.
Interviews and photos of survivors and attackers were in September issue of Newsweek. And about 1 surviving attacker, even if he was tortured, his testimony is just a small insignificant part of the whole evidence.


Basaev
more

Well what can I say, you are outright ignorant and naive at the same time about Europe and Russia. I don't blame you. How can you understand. Obviously my quick history lesson was twisted in your head and you took half of what I said at face value and the facts you ignored.

Truth is you don't know anything and the links you posted constitute no evidence what so ever.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: Aelius
Well what can I say, you are outright ignorant and naive at the same time about Europe and Russia. I don't blame you. How can you understand. Obviously my quick history lesson was twisted in your head and you took half of what I said at face value and the facts you ignored.

Truth is you don't know anything and the links you posted constitute no evidence what so ever.

Oh yeah, FYI, I was born and raised in the USSR and lived there until 1995 and go there twice a year, so unless you have similar background too, please don't preach here about things you know nothing about. Secondly, very nice to see your true color come out.
It's you who is ignorant and naive, "worldly" wanna-be who probably never left the country. I won't continue this argument, have no time or desire to discuss the facts with someone who refuses to study the issues at hand. Bye, mudak...

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Grakatt
"Q. When every Chechnyan is dead? A. yes, if they shelter Al-Qaeda and cause trouble."

So the only way to exterminate the now legendary Al-Qaeda is to repeat Bush' doctrine? 1.Shock&Awe 2.- 3.Peace? You can't bomb, torture and kill your way to peace and stability. At least, you can't only do that.

"Russia is not a foreign power in Chechnya. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation. Secondly if Chechnya is "not coherent" about stamping out the terrorists, they don't deserve independence"

Heh, the Chechnyan people have fought being part of Russia since Russia came stomping through the region the first time. Who are you to say who deserves independence or not? Maybe some people think that the U.S deserves no independence from Britain because of how the U.S has 'dealt with' the indians; that doesn't mean they're even half sane.


"Russia has plenty of its own oil. It's an exporter with or without Baku. But no, they don't want oil money in hands of Al-Qaeda"

Sigh..Al Qaeda is everywhere except in your own head, yeah? 'If you can't identify them easily, then just kill'em all, and peace will ensue', and nevermind that the civilians will always be the ones who suffer the most. I can sort of tell you have never resided in a war-torn region, and probably never been in war either.


"Save the drama for your mama. Their so called history doesn't give them the go ahead to become an Al-Qaeda foothold in the region, or the right to kidnap and terrorize in other regions of Russia."

Lol..right, but you do realize that annihilating an entire people can't possibly give AL-Qaeda any less incitement? Kill every Chechnyan and Al-Qaeda will still exist. What then will you do? Nuke the world?


"And as I said, not Russia's problem. If they can't control these Al Qaeda elements on its soil, Russia has no choice but to do it by itself."

They can't control themselves, they are not a coherent body, I really did tell you. A foreign military in the region isn't going to make them any more coherent, except perhaps in their final efforts to blow as much of Russia up as possible. What the place needs is understanding, that and peace talks.



"
Well they had control over Chechnya. Why should it matter if Russia recognized officially or not. Taiwan are doing just fine without China recognizing them independent. You don't see Taiwanese attacking mainland China. ||
There are other solutions, but none of them involve Russia allowing an Al Qaeda foothold to exist in the Caucuses. The Chechens had their independence, and they blew it."





Funny thing is how extremely tempting it is to call you an idiot, and how that would surely turn you into one even more.

"Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994. When Russia invaded Chechnya, a bloody war ensued. Intending to crush separatist forces, this was Yeltsin's first major confrontation. However, the supposed awesome Russian military strength inherited from the Soviet Union, turned into a humiliating disaster. Grozny was devastated. Some 70-80,000 people died, mostly Chechen civilians, and in 1996, Russia withdrew defeated."

Yeah, Russia had full control over Chechnya, and kindly allowed them to try their hands at own independence 😛

What you don't seem to comprehend is that brutally keeping parts of the region (country, call it whatever you wish) under the heel of the Russian military, hated since the Russians first tried to put the Chechnyan people under its heel, is never going to accomplish anything else then a constant incitement to go blow things up.

Stratman : That's right, don't even try 🙂

You can argue all you want, and if it was 1995, I may believe you that if Russia just pulled out, the fighting would stop. But in 1999 Russia learned the hard way, that even though they have pulled out, the fighting didn't stop, it spread to neighboring Dagestan. Don't you get it? The Chechen terrorists don't just want independence, they want control over other parts of Russia as well. It would be suicidal for Russia to allow that, as much as it would make you happy. You want a state for every terrorist. It's not gonna happen while Putin is around.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: Aelius
Well what can I say, you are outright ignorant and naive at the same time about Europe and Russia. I don't blame you. How can you understand. Obviously my quick history lesson was twisted in your head and you took half of what I said at face value and the facts you ignored.

Truth is you don't know anything and the links you posted constitute no evidence what so ever.

Oh yeah, FYI, I was born and raised in the USSR and lived there until 1995 and go there twice a year, so unless you have similar background too, please don't preach here about things you know nothing about. Secondly, very nice to see your true color come out.
It's you who is ignorant and naive, "worldly" wanna-be who probably never left the country. I won't continue this argument, have no time or desire to discuss the facts with someone who refuses to study the issues at hand. Bye, mudak...

That just makes it worse. You lived there and visit the country yet you know nothing of its politic history and what goes on behind closed doors. Not surprised. The last jurnalist in Russia who tried to shed some light on that was gunned down by the mob.

Also since when does someone have to live in a country to know anything about it. Most Canadians know nothing about the kinds of laws that were passed in this country after 9/11 that eviscerates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They didn't know at all until it was used against a jurnalist. There was public outcry and once the story was no longer sexy everyone conveniently forgot.

You don't have to be a foreigner to be navie, ignorant and outright dumb about a country. It's citizens can do a swell job of that.

You are completely clueless and you make statements against me without any evidence what so ever. Fact is you can't change facts. What I said was 100% truth and you ignore it becaus it doesn't fit into your rosey view of Russia.

What I say is full of hate, that's true but I don't lie either.

 

[SuperTool]

Yes, Aelius. You know everything. Everyone else is clueless.

 

[Grakatt]

Originally posted by: SuperTool


You can argue all you want, and if it was 1995, I may believe you that if Russia just pulled out, the fighting would stop. But in 1999 Russia learned the hard way, that even though they have pulled out, the fighting didn't stop, it spread to neighboring Dagestan. Don't you get it? The Chechen terrorists don't just want independence, they want control over other parts of Russia as well. It would be suicidal for Russia to allow that, as much as it would make you happy. You want a state for every terrorist. It's not gonna happen while Putin is around.

1. The Chechnyan people want independence, they have wanted that ever since the Russians first came and tried to put them under Mother Russia's heel.

2. Annihilating a people through a brutal military power is not going to stop the terrorists. You can answer 'you can't reason with a madman' all you want, but killing civilians isn't going to help.
As far as I am concerned, the daily acts barbarism by the Russian military in Chechnya is terrorism as well as what the Chechnyan knucklehead extremists are doing.

This isn't about a state for terrorists (I dislike them as much as you, but I don't see them in every bush). It's a bout a people that still want, have always wanted, indepence; with a more turbulent relations to Russia than most other. (See link I gave for clues as to why). It's about a region, a state of sorts, that is in a state of chaos. It needs help, not annihilation. The civilians will always pay..and so the future harvest of desperate people are created.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Yes, Aelius. You know everything. Everyone else is clueless.

Coming from you that's a compliment not sarcasm. Thx.

 

[Aimster]

Supertool are you Russian? You support everything they've done.