*** In light of the recent threads about abortion, please read this. It's sure to broaden your views.

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
10
81
There are generally considered to be six arguments for abortion, and six counterarguments.


The first argument considers the law and anthropology. It can be shown that many societies routinely practice abortion and infanticide without parental guilt or destruction of the moral fiber of the society. Usually examples are drawn from marginal societies, living in a harsh environment, such as the African Pygmies or Bushmen of the Kalahari. Or from societies which place a great premium on sons and kill off excess female infants. But the same argument has used the example of Japan, now the sixth-largest nation in the world and one of the most highly industrialized.

The reverse argument states that Western society has little in common with either Pygmies or the Japanese, and that what is right and acceptable for them is not necessarily so for us.

Legal arguments are related to this. It can be shown that modern abortion laws did not always exist; they evolved over many centuries, in response to a variety of factors. Proponents of abortion claim that modern laws are arbitrary, foolish, and irrelevant. They argue for a legal system that accurately reflects the mores and the technology of the present, not of the past.

The reverse argument points out that old laws are not necessarily bad laws and that to change them thoughtlessly invites uncertainty and flux in an already uncertain world. A less sophisticated form of the argument opposes abortion simply because it is illegal. Until recently, many otherwise thoughtful doctors felt comfortable taking this position. Now, however, abortion is being debated in many circles, and such a simplistic view is untenable.

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The second argument concerns abortion as a form of birth control. Proponents regard abortion on demand as a highly effective form of birth control and point to its success in Japan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and elsewhere. Proponents see no essential difference between preventing a conception and halting a process that has not yet resulted in a fully viable infant. (These same people see no difference between the rhythm method and the pill, since the intention of both practices is identical.) In essence, the argument claims, ?it?s the thought that counts.?

Those that disagree draw a line between prevention and correction. They believe that once conception has occurred, the fetus has right and cannot be killed. Many who favor conventional birth control measures hold this viewpoint. For these people, the problem of what to do if birth control fails ? as it does in a certain percentage of cases ? is troublesome.

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The third argument considers social and psychiatric factors. It has variants.

The first states that the physical and mental health of the mother always takes precedence over that of the unborn child. The mother, and her already existing family, may suffer emotionally and financially by the birth of another infant, and therefore, in such cases the birth should be prevented.

The second states that it is immoral and criminal to bring into the world an unwanted child. It states that, in our increasingly complex society, the proper rearing of a child is a time-consuming and expensive process demanding maternal attention and paternal financial support for education. If a family cannot provide this, they do a grave disservice to the child. The obvious extreme case is that of the unwed mother, who is frequently unprepared to rear an infant, either emotionally or financially. [Me: If she can?t have an abortion and can?t pay for the child?s upbringing, where does she turn to? I don?t think our welfare system was meant to handle this.]

The counterargument is vague here. There is talk of mothers who unconsciously wish to conceive; talk of the maternal urge to procreate; flat statements that ?there never was a child born who wasn?t wanted.? Or an ex-post-facto approach: once the child is born, the family will adjust and love him. [Me: I don?t care too much for this counterargument.]

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The fourth argument states that a woman should never, under any circumstances, be required to bear a child if she does not wish to do so. Abortion on demand should be a right of every woman, like the right to vote. This is an interesting argument, but its usefulness has been diluted by many of its proponents, who often express a rather paranoid feeling that the world is dominated by men who cannot be expected to show any sympathy for the opposite sex.

Those who disagree with this argument usually point out that a modern, emancipated woman need not become pregnant if she does not wish it. A wide variety of birth-control methods and devices are available to her, and they believe that abortion is not a substitute for birth control. The case of birth-control failure and inadvertent pregnancy ? such as rape ? are difficult to handle within this framework, however.

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The fifth argument states that abortion is safe, easy, simple, and cheap; thus there can be no practical objection to upholding legal termination of pregnancy.

The counterargument states that abortion carries a finite risk of mortality, which, though small, nonetheless exists. Unfortunately for this viewpoint, it is now perfectly clear that a hospital abortion is one-sixth to one-tenth as dangerous as a hospital delivery. This means it is safer to abort a child than to carry it to term. [Me: In other words, the chances of mortality for abortion roughly the same as for a tonsillectomy.]

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The sixth argument is the newest and most ingenious. It was first proposed by Garrett Hardin, and it attacks the problem at a crucial question: Is abortion murder? Hardin says no. He argues that the embryo is nothing but a template, ultimately derived from DNA, the information-carrying genetic substance. Information in itself, he says, is of no value. It is like a blueprint. The blueprint of a building, he says, is worthless; only the building has value and significance. The blueprint may be destroyed with impunity, but a building cannot be destroyed with careful deliberation. This is a swift and oversimplified summary of his argument. Hardin was trained both as an anthropologist and as a biologist, and his viewpoint is unique. It is interesting because it considers the question of _when_ is a person human in terms of _what_ is a human being? Returning to the analogy of blueprint and building, the blueprint specifies size, shape, and general structure, but it does not state whether the building will be erected in New York or Tokyo, whether in a slum or an affluent area, whether it will be used effectively or fall into disrepair. By implication, Hardin is defining a human being not only as an animal that walks on its hind legs, has a large brain, and an opposable thumb; he includes in the definition enough maternal care and education to make a person a well-adjusted, functioning unit of a social grouping.

The counterargument states that Hardin assumes DNA is a ?non-unique? copy of information, when in fact it is quite unique. All children of a given mother and father are not identical; therefore the DNA cannot be ?non-unique?.

To this Hardin replies that we already, quite by chance, select only some of the potential DNA combinations of sperm and egg and allow these to reach maturation. He notes that an average woman has 30,000 eggs in her ovaries, yet will bring only a miniscule fraction of those to term. The others are destroyed as surely as if they had been aborted. And, as he says, one of them might have been ?a super Beethoven.? [Me: Sure makes you wonder about the fetal homicide laws?]

Hardin?s argument is still new and strikes many as abstruse. But undoubtedly his is just the first of many new arguments, for and against abortion, which will be proposed on an increasingly subtle scientific basis. It is a commentary on modern man that he must justify his morality on the basis of the molecular mechanisms at work within a single cell of his body.

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There are other arguments, but they are mostly evasive and petty. There are economic arguments concerning the cost of turning hospitals into abortion mills; there are vague and wild-eyed arguments of unleashed libertinism, similar to the arguments heard before the introduction of the birth-control pills. There are also reflex liberal arguments that anything freer is by definition good and meritocratic arguments that the outpouring of children from the lower classes should be stemmed. There is no point in considering these viewpoints. They are advanced, for the most part, by thoughtless and irritable little men.


- Michael Chrichton (this work has been reproduced as faithfully as possible by me)
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"Is abortion murder? Hardin says no. He argues that the embryo..."

OK, but how long is it an embryo? Gets sticky after that, eh?
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
Interesting read. I guess I fall somewhere between the 4th and 5th arguement for abortion. I just don't see particular reasons not to allow abortions. Parents should be allowed to bring a child into the world where and when they want to.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
tis interesting, can't say i agree with number 6, even though i am pro-choice.

don't agree with number two either, proponents of choice believe that it should not be relied upon as a form of birth control. such thinking is what pro-lifers would like to think goes on, but i don't think any rational pro-choice advocate would equate abortion to the pill.
 

jonley

Member
Jun 28, 2001
158
0
0
Thanks for the intersting read.
Could you tell me where Michael Crichton has written this, I would love to read the rest.
No matter how hollywood butchers his movies, I have found his views on science and sociology to be very intelligent.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0
I just remembered that I read a novel about abortion by Michael Chrichton a loooong time ago. It was actually pretty good from what I remember. If I recall correctly he seemed to be pro-choice from the viewpoints of the main characters in the story. I forget the name of the book right now.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
10
81
The entire thing can be found in the back of (IMO) one of Chrichton's greatest works, A Case of Need. Written when he was still in med internship, IIRC.

There're also some things on medical morals, and some other interesting things. Rent it if you haven't read it before.
 

FrontlineWarrior

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2000
4,905
1
0
#6 is the only argument/counterargument for abortion. everything else is a side issue.

I can't really comprehend why ANYONE would think #6 is the "newest and most ingenius." It's the problem that began the controversy, and 1-5 were justifications in the pro-life camp's arsenal that might hopefully outweigh #6.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
<<announcer voice>> "And the pro-lifers have won it!"

just a lame attempt to impart some humour in this thread, before it gets ugly.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76
No matter how you look at it abortion is'nt fair to the child. At the moment of conception life is sparked, if a person chooses to terminate that life then they are murderer its just that simple.
 

eakers

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
12,169
2
0


<< No matter how you look at it abortion is'nt fair to the child. At the moment of conception life is sparked, if a person chooses to terminate that life then they are murderer its just that simple. >>


that sir, is an opinon.
not a fact.

*kat. <-- believes in freedom to choose.
 

AmigaMan

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
3,644
1
0


<< believes in freedom to choose. >>



So I can go ahead and murder YOU, eakers, because I have the freedom to choose to do that? The argument about freedom to choose is invalid.
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,528
3
76
Abortion should be kept legal, safe and available to any woman that wants one. Period. No parental consent. No riduculing/bombings by the Pro-life Nazis. After the right to vote, legalized abortion is the best thing that's ever happened to women in this country. That's my two cents and I'm out of this thread, b/c I've bantered back and forth on this topic way too many times.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
1
0


<<

<< believes in freedom to choose. >>



So I can go ahead and murder YOU, eakers, because I have the freedom to choose to do that? The argument about freedom to choose is invalid.
>>




You have the freedom to "murder" your dog, cat, hamster, whatever when and if you feel like it, correct? That is because we dont hold them in the same regard as a mentally capable, thought-processing, human being who is capable of their own free will and self-determination.

Now you tell me, how can you hold a grouping of cells (Im talking 1st trimester abortion) in the same regard as a grown human?

You cant.
 

Legendary

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2002
7,019
1
0


<<

<< believes in freedom to choose. >>



So I can go ahead and murder YOU, eakers, because I have the freedom to choose to do that? The argument about freedom to choose is invalid.
>>



That, sir, is another opinion. The thing about abortion is that there is no set date within a pregnancy which defines when the embryo is actually "alive" and aborting it would actually count as murder. I don't even know if such a date exists, maybe it's just when the baby is born, then it is actually "alive", just like you and me. Until then, according to abortionists, killing it is OK. I happen to agree with that, as long as it's not used as some sort of contraceptive, but as a means to deter the consequences of say...a rape or an ineffective contraceptive. I don't want idiots who just have sex and then say "oh you can have an abortion" to support this, because they're the idiots that cause a problem.
 

Freejack2

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2000
7,751
8
91
Personally I don't think men really have much right to make decisions for women on this. Women are the ones who have to carry the child and they should be the ones who decide and make the laws on this.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76


<<

<< No matter how you look at it abortion is'nt fair to the child. At the moment of conception life is sparked, if a person chooses to terminate that life then they are murderer its just that simple. >>


that sir, is an opinon.
not a fact.

>>



How is that an opinion? Its a proven medical fact that at conception life is created, that life after 9 months results in a baby. How is that an opinion?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0


<< Its a proven medical fact that at conception life is created, that life after 9 months results in a baby. >>



I don't believe I've ever seen even remote proof of this...Perhaps Arkitech has proven it and finally gotten rid of all need for debate over abortion.

I hereby nominate Arkitech for the Nobel Peace Prize for Medicine as well as Time's Man of the Year.

Care to tackle the existence of God next?
 

AmigaMan

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
3,644
1
0


<< << Its a proven medical fact that at conception life is created, that life after 9 months results in a baby. >>



I don't believe I've ever seen even remote proof of this...
>>



Hello...you and I are here in the flesh. What do you think happens when a spermy and an eggy get together? Duh!