In key contests, Democrats championing gun rights

[Lemon law]

I come from a democratic family, and am a chip off the ole block democrat also, but at the same time, I am the black sheep of the family in that own guns and use them for hunting.

But as someone who likes to think of himself as a responsible gun owner, I regard the present NRA as the greatest threat to my continued right to own guns. The old NRA was a great organization that championed nature conservancy, sensible guns laws, advocated restrictions on fully automatic weapons, and then around 1965-70,
the NRA was hijacked by idiots that turned the NRA into a lobbying organization devoid of any common sense.

Even today my fear is not the gun ownership of the average NRA member, but rather that criminals will, in the fullness of time, steal their gun collections that now have grown to include fully automatic weapons.

Even I am not crazy enough to think I can defend me and my famdamily when the criminals are now armed much better than the average law enforcement officer. As an average citizen of finite financial means, I can't possibly win the arms race the NRA advocates I engage in, or that I can have a gun in my hand 24/7/365. And even if I do have a gun in my hand, some criminal can shoot me from 200 yards away, given all the assault rifles running around. Criminals can learn to shoot too, and the NRA will happily teach them.

And openly advocating everyone has a right to carry a concealed firearm is stupidity personified. If some idiot gets in a road rage bar fight, they will probably break their own fist in administering rough drunken justice, but give them a gun, and they are more likely to kill innocent bystanders.

Rinse and repeat that often enough, and yes, people not knowledgeable about guns will take everyone's guns.
away. What happened to a sensible middle ground we used to have?

 

[Moonbeam]

So, constitution aside, if people, say, choose to kick out darkies and homosexuals (to "ensure their safety and preserve institution of marriage"), would you be happy Moonbeam? After all, the people have a right to the form of government that they think will best effect their own safety and happiness

That will be fine with me. All I need is evidence that dark folk or gay marriage affects your safety and happiness, evidence of course, that cannot and will not ever exist. In some inner cities the deaths from gun ownership outnumber the lives saved by owning those same guns. Folk ought to be able to practice some common sense based on real evidence. Let the issue be a matter of local conditions by the will of the local people.

 

[SoCalAznGuy]

I find it sickening that so many would CONDEMN a child to a life of gun violence and death because they have a sick obsession with shooting things.

 

[Moonbeam]

Throckmorton: I don't think you can legitimately argue that position.

M: I think I can. One one, so far.

T: The excessive gun restrictions and gun bans are unjustifiable.

M: Yes they are. Two even.

They were politically viable before because of emotionalism, but people are more savvy regarding their rights these days.

M: Nope, three three.

T: Maybe it's because of lawyer shows, or maybe because of 24 hour news making wonky politics more accessible, but Americans generally now realize that what you feel and want aren't the same as law.

M: Maybe a fly flew up your nose or the moon is green cheese. Four four.

T: Another example would be the expanding support for civil unions and gay marriage.

M: The issue of gay marriage is determined so far by states. I win.

 

[Moonbeam]

Why do these gun debates always remind me of the first Conan the Barbarian movie?

guns=steel? Oh yea I forgot, then snakes

I don't know. I don't have your bad taste in movies, maybe.

 

[hal2kilo]

I don't know. I don't have your bad taste in movies, maybe.

Now your going to tell me you didn't like 200 Motels?

 

[nick1985]

I find it sickening that so many would CONDEMN a child to a life of gun violence and death because they have a sick obsession with shooting things.

I'd bet you have never been to a shooting range. You are so ignorant its silly

 

[Moonbeam]

I find it sickening that so many would CONDEMN a child to a life of gun violence and death because they have a sick obsession with shooting things.

Yes, but that's not the whole story. There are plenty of sound reasons why folk own guns and would like to keep them. The issue to me is that the gun religion demands total dominion even on folk who want to practice differently. With all their guns they are still cowards and feel impotent that some black person in a ghetto somewhere is out to get their gun too. People never cease to amaze when it comes to stupid.

 

[Moonbeam]

Now your going to tell me you didn't like 200 Motels?

Don't even have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

 

[hal2kilo]

Yes, but that's not the whole story. There are plenty of sound reasons why folk own guns and would like to keep them. The issue to me is that the gun religion demands total dominion even on folk who want to practice differently. With all their guns they are still cowards and feel impotent that some black person in a ghetto somewhere is out to get their gun too. People never cease to amaze when it comes to stupid.

By the way, I became a pround liberal gun owner after the Patriot Act got signed.

 

[Moonbeam]

Keep trying to justify gun grabbing, it only makes you look more and more silly.

Nick, you only tell me by this kind of crap, the things that control you. The day I start worrying about looking silly is the day I start becoming concerned with how I look rather than what is the truth. We are very different people, in some ways. I died long ago to everything that was important to me, including how I look to fools who haven't.

 

[Moonbeam]

By the way, I became a pround liberal gun owner after the Patriot Act got signed.

What the significance of that is, I do not know, but I have owned them all of my life and have enough of them that I do not know the number.

 

[irishScott]

Most dems and liberals do support 2nd amendment rights. The right makes the accusations because dems believe in framework that should shape the 2nd amendment. The right wants to have the 2nd Amendment rule without any governship whatsoever. Most people don't have a problem with gun ownership, but instead the types of guns and how they are owned.

Yep. Shape it into impotence.

Like Canadian law where you can't keep a loaded gun in your own damn house. Or Californian law where you have to carry the ammo separately and openly. Or, IIRC, New York law that prohibits magazine with more than 12 rounds. Or British law where defending yourself with a firearm, even if it's the bad guy's and you snatched it from him, is illegal. Under democrat control, guns would be made all but useless for self defense and could be little more than show-pieces.

As for types of guns, lol. You know .50 Sniper Rifles are legal in most states right? How many of those are used in crimes. Anyone? Any statistics at all on .50 sniper rifle crime? Oh wait, there aren't any. Period. Because despite their devastating power, no one uses .50 sniper rifles to commit crimes. Likewise, the percentage of gun crime from legally bought AR-15/AK-47/other so-called "assault rifles" is ridiculously low.

The slippery slope is so real and so proven that basically no democrat-run government can be trusted to support the individual's right to bear, not just own, bear arms as defined in the constitution. Also, most democrats I've talked to believe that the 2nd amendment is obsolete or was meant for militias. Very few support the right to own and carry.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yep. Shape it into impotence.

Like Canadian law where you can't keep a loaded gun in your own damn house. Or Californian law where you have to carry the ammo separately and openly. Or, IIRC, New York law that prohibits magazine with more than 12 rounds. Or British law where defending yourself with a firearm, even if it's the bad guy's and you snatched it from him, is illegal. Under democrat control, guns would be made all but useless for self defense and could be little more than show-pieces.

As for types of guns, lol. You know .50 Sniper Rifles are legal in most states right? How many of those are used in crimes. Anyone? Any statistics at all on .50 sniper rifle crime? Oh wait, there aren't any. Period. Because despite their devastating power, no one uses .50 sniper rifles to commit crimes. Likewise, the percentage of gun crime from legally bought AR-15/AK-47/other so-called "assault rifles" is ridiculously low.

The slippery slope is so real and so proven that basically no democrat-run government can be trusted to support the individual's right to bear, not just own, bear arms as defined in the constitution. Also, most democrats I've talked to believe that the 2nd amendment is obsolete or was meant for militias. Very few support the right to own and carry.

Nice slippery slope icon you have there. The slippery slope is your forehead.

 

[IronWing]

Dems got the message after Dukakis. It's just that the NRA started humping the Republican Party's leg so hard that they never noticed the Dem shift.

 

[shortylickens]

Unfortunately, I don't think they are getting the message as much as they are just saying whatever they think will get them elected. There's little doubt that when they get into office most of them will do whatever they can to restrict gun ownership rights.

This.

Politicians politic. Thats what they do.

 

[irishScott]

Nice slippery slope icon you have there. The slippery slope is your forehead.

I don't even know what that means. Anyone want to clarify?

 

[Double Trouble]

And openly advocating everyone has a right to carry a concealed firearm is stupidity personified. If some idiot gets in a road rage bar fight, they will probably break their own fist in administering rough drunken justice, but give them a gun, and they are more likely to kill innocent bystanders.

I've heard that spiel many times, but the experiences in all the states that have allowed concealed carry have simply not borne that out. Violent crime - including murders - have gone down significantly in those states. I don't know if that's correlation or causation, but we can say with near certainty that allowing concealed carry did not lead to the all-out wild wild west drunken shootouts at the drop of a hat that opponents had warned us about.

 

[PrinceofWands]

There's little doubt that when they get into office most of them will do whatever they can to restrict gun ownership rights.

Yet most of the gun control measures that made the situation suck were passed with Republican support (either executive, legislative, or both). It's not just dems that go for gun control.

The big change is that knowledge now refutes fear. The bulk of available academic research opposes the idea of gun control. With no valid arguments, gun control simply topples.

 

[Lemon law]

I've heard that spiel many times, but the experiences in all the states that have allowed concealed carry have simply not borne that out. Violent crime - including murders - have gone down significantly in those states. I don't know if that's correlation or causation, but we can say with near certainty that allowing concealed carry did not lead to the all-out wild wild west drunken shootouts at the drop of a hat that opponents had warned us about.

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Those who oppose gun controls of any kind claim the statistics are slam dunk on their side.

Yet the real picture is far from a slam dunk, much of the data is doctored and biased.

http://www.sj-r.com/carousel/x1526463189/Concealed-carry-laws-Experts-debate-impact

And other factors external to the right to carry concealed firearms may be the prime reduction in crime rate if a crime rate reduction occurs in a given area. That and the fact that its too early to make long term conclusions yet since many of the law changes are new.

 

[Nebor]

I think the crime rates among concealed carry license holders is a pretty strong statistic, it usually places them far less likely to commit a violent crime than the average citizen, and usually less likely to commit a violent crime than the average police officer.

Even anecdotally you can't find many cases of CCWers blasting each other because of road rage (though I can think of a couple cases in Texas where an off duty cop and a CCWer shot it out.)

It just seems that the average person who chooses to take responsibility for their own defense is far more responsible than liberals think the the average citizen is.

 

[theeedude]

I am D and I don't care about guns. If anything, with all these teabaggers arming and talking revolution, liberals should arm too to protect America.

 

[classy]

I think the crime rates among concealed carry license holders is a pretty strong statistic, it usually places them far less likely to commit a violent crime than the average citizen, and usually less likely to commit a violent crime than the average police officer.

Even anecdotally you can't find many cases of CCWers blasting each other because of road rage (though I can think of a couple cases in Texas where an off duty cop and a CCWer shot it out.)

It just seems that the average person who chooses to take responsibility for their own defense is far more responsible than liberals think the the average citizen is.

Man, people just keep throwing out untruths. The safest states are in the New England area with only Maine and New Hampshire as being fairly liberal with ccw laws. But Wisconsin one the most safest states flatout denies CCW. The other state is Illnois which is in the middle for violent states. The most dangerous states are traditional red states except for Cali and Md.

 

[nick1985]

The safest states are in the New England area with only Maine and New Hampshire as being fairly liberal with ccw laws.

huh?

Every state has CCW laws except 2, Illinois and Wisconsin.

 

[CrackRabbit]

huh?

Every state has CCW laws except 2, Illinois and Wisconsin.

I think he meant they (ME and NH) have liberal CCW laws.