In Honor of Willem Van Spronsen

[Starbuck1975]

One of the most ridiculous aspects of today's political climate are the partisan assholes who insist on perpetuating this bullshit that everyone who disagrees with them is of like mind. Newsflash: you're not that important.

Never said I was. Can’t help but notice the deflection.

 

[brandonbull]

@nickqt do you condemn this act of violence. Yes or no will suffice.

I'm sure he was "just trying to punch some notsees".

 

[nickqt]

@nickqt do you condemn this act of violence. Yes or no will suffice.

I don't know who this guy is, or who did what to whom.

I condemn all acts of violence, unless in self defense. Same as I condemn some "leftist" on these forums who keeps saying that leftists should start a civil war.

That said, once the right-wing authoritarians are told to start murdering their fellow citizens, I will not condemn any and all actions by my fellow citizens to defend themselves and their country.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I don't know who this guy is, or who did what to whom.

A short Google search would tell you everything you need to know.

I condemn all acts of violence, unless in self defense. Same as I condemn some "leftist" on these forums who keeps saying that leftists should start a civil war.

On this we can agree

That said, once the right-wing authoritarians are told to start murdering their fellow citizens, I will not condemn any and all actions by my fellow citizens to defend themselves and their country.

In the case of this story, a militant leftist went from anger to action due to irresponsible rhetoric from Democrat politicians. Last I checked, none have condemned this act of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

 

[ch33zw1z]

In the case of this story, a militant leftist went from anger to action due to irresponsible rhetoric from Democrat politicians. Last I checked, none have condemned this act of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

Disclaimer: I'm using officially accepted definitions of words in this reply. None from your personal dictionary (that you've yet to provide)

I see you're in here propogating the same dishonest material that the right wing has for a while. Antifa is not a leftist group, hasn't ever been, that's a right wing us-vs-them talking point. If Democrats were to take a fascist approach to governing, it's assumed antifa would fight them as well. It just so happens in recent years that the right wing in our country has embraced fascists. I'll admit, this propoganda has been very effective.

I've linked spronsen's supposed manifesto below.(found via Reddit and imgur) Reading it, he sounds like your type of guy. Especially your deep concern about playing semantic games (ironically, you're typically the one playing the game)

https://imgur.com/a/pljy6Fq

He's a professed Anti-fascist (antifa as we know them), and anarchist. He doesn't appear to be a leftist in any form, but hey....dont let that stop your increasingly dishonest posts.

My personal opinion, glad nobody was injured. I can support protests, but violence like this is not good and I won't support it.

Furthermore, reading his manifesto, if we can really even call it that, he would not agree with an independent of a centrist mindset like me at all.

Maybe though, the burn it down crowd can relate, even though this guy said we don't have to.

 

[cytg111]

FUCK OFF RUSSIA

 

[cytg111]

I'm sure he was "just trying to punch some notsees".

You got your russian passport already? Why dont you fuck off then.

 

[pmv]

Agreed. This guy was a self described member of a far-left antifa militia, the type of person I’ve been assured repeatedly doesn’t exist.

He also apparently dabbled in spousal abuse. It seems all these militia types have a common demoninator of unhinged anger looking for a target.

This thread is also unsurprisingly quiet. Don’t see Democrats rushing to condemn an act of terrorism.

Not sure anyone would say they don't exist, as opposed to they exist in very small numbers. I mean we've already seen that guy who tried to shoot the baseball-playing Congressmen. And there were a few prominent cases during the Vietnam-war era, not to mention the end of the 19th and start of the 20th century.

(Heard an account recently of just how violent the British Sufferagettes were - they were very much into bomb-planting. It's interesting that the violence of that campaign was erased later, because both the pro- and anti- women's sufferage sides found it embarrassing to acknowledge that women could be pretty violent when they needed to be. I mean Emily Davidson, known as a martyr for throwing herself under the King's racehorse, is less well known for her role as the woman who blew up the Prime Minister's house!)

Also, the poster who said 'imagine the media coverage if he had been a Proud Boy' just brings up the thought of how the right would react in that case. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would be hailing him as a hero, even more so behind the scenes in their private chat.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Disclaimer: I'm using officially accepted definitions of words in this reply. None from your personal dictionary (that you've yet to provide)

I see you're in here propogating the same dishonest material that the right wing has for a while. Antifa is not a leftist group, hasn't ever been, that's a right wing us-vs-them talking point. If Democrats were to take a fascist approach to governing, it's assumed antifa would fight them as well. It just so happens in recent years that the right wing in our country has embraced fascists. I'll admit, this propoganda has been very effective.

I've linked spronsen's supposed manifesto below.(found via Reddit and imgur) Reading it, he sounds like your type of guy. Especially your deep concern about playing semantic games (ironically, you're typically the one playing the game)

https://imgur.com/a/pljy6Fq

He's a professed Anti-fascist (antifa as we know them), and anarchist. He doesn't appear to be a leftist in any form, but hey....dont let that stop your increasingly dishonest posts.

My personal opinion, glad nobody was injured. I can support protests, but violence like this is not good and I won't support it.

Furthermore, reading his manifesto, if we can really even call it that, he would not agree with an independent of a centrist mindset like me at all.

Maybe though, the burn it down crowd can relate, even though this guy said we don't have to.

The anarchist/antifa/occupy whatever are a militant leftist group, primarily concentrated on the west coast. The American origins go back to Vietnam era when different leftist fringe groups dabbled and flirted with militant symbols, mostly modeling or taking inspiration from militant Marxism and other revolutionaries.

This guy was a construction worker and musician. I am guessing a healthy dose of talk radio, Twitter and lack of econonic opportunity bended his mind. Take this same guy and pluck him in Texas, and he probably comes out a white supremist.

The Proud Boys are fringe as well. The only different between the left and right at this moment in history is that the GOP has a President throwing jet fuel on the fire to ensure his own political survival.

If everything you said is true, then why are no Democrats condemning this act of violence.

We are lucky no one got hurt. I expect that will no longer be the case in short time, and I fully expect a Trumper to throw the next punch. You can already see the rhetoric boiling over in news article Comments and Twitter.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Not sure anyone would say they don't exist, as opposed to they exist in very small numbers.

They are more splintered into smaller factions, thereby limiting their power, and also therefore tolerated more as a nuisance than anything else.

I mean we've already seen that guy who tried to shoot the baseball-playing Congressmen. And there were a few prominent cases during the Vietnam-war era, not to mention the end of the 19th and start of the 20th century.

Most of the products of the left’s militant fringe are in their late 60s and early 70s now.

(Heard an account recently of just how violent the British Sufferagettes were - they were very much into bomb-planting. It's interesting that the violence of that campaign was erased later, because both the pro- and anti- women's sufferage sides found it embarrassing to acknowledge that women could be pretty violent when they needed to be. I mean Emily Davidson, known as a martyr for throwing herself under the King's racehorse, is less well known for her role as the woman who blew up the Prime Minister's house!)

Any political movement has its fringe that get inpatient with progress and resort to violence.

Also, the poster who said 'imagine the media coverage if he had been a Proud Boy' just brings up the thought of how the right would react in that case. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would be hailing him as a hero, even more so behind the scenes in their private chat.

I believe this largely to be true. What should concern everyone is that the Proud Boys are attracting young men, young men who grew up during a time of economic prosperity where they shouldn’t be susceptible to militance.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The anarchist/antifa/occupy whatever are a militant leftist group, primarily concentrated on the west coast. The American origins go back to Vietnam era when different leftist fringe groups dabbled and flirted with militant symbols, mostly modeling or taking inspiration from militant Marxism and other revolutionaries.

This guy was a construction worker and musician. I am guessing a healthy dose of talk radio, Twitter and lack of econonic opportunity bended his mind. Take this same guy and pluck him in Texas, and he probably comes out a white supremist.

The Proud Boys are fringe as well. The only different between the left and right at this moment in history is that the GOP has a President throwing jet fuel on the fire to ensure his own political survival.

If everything you said is true, then why are no Democrats condemning this act of violence.

We are lucky no one got hurt. I expect that will no longer be the case in short time, and I fully expect a Trumper to throw the next punch. You can already see the rhetoric boiling over in news article Comments and Twitter.

There's quite a few ways I can respond here, but I'll simply go with: That's not the ONLY difference between the left and right in USA. That's an oversimplified revision of the truth, and falls under the same dishonest rhetoric I referred to previously.

Trumpers have always been swinging. They never stopped. Republicans have been hell bent on stopping democrats for decades, even when they agree. When Obama was elected, that was the last straw for our hateful peers, Trump being the culmination and hate, ignorance, and pride in the first two.

Its why I say people like you are out a party, because it appears to me that your parties base abandoned what sense or reason they had cuz libtard tears are just too good to pass up.

 

[Vic]

A short Google search would tell you everything you need to know.

On this we can agree

In the case of this story, a militant leftist went from anger to action due to irresponsible rhetoric from Democrat politicians. Last I checked, none have condemned this act of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

Once again, you're demanding that people apologize for someone that they had never even heard of before a day ago. I hope you understand how that invalidates your argument.

As for this accusation of 'enabler,' unless Willie had just walked out of a Democratic party office where he was the guest of honor before committing his crimes, the way the Proud Boys once walked out a GOP office before committing one of their crimes, then you might want to look in the mirror there.

I know that Republicans like to say that all liberals and Democrats are extremists (antifa or socialists or both somehow), but the easily observable reality is that it's the Republicans who have elected an extremist leader as President, while the Democratic frontrunner to that is (yet again) a soft-spoken moderate. It's the Republicans who invite extremists into their party offices, like they did with the Proud Boys, or even into the White House, as Trump did just this past weekend. It's the Republican politicians, especially the Republican President, who engage in irresponsible and inciteful rhetoric every day. Up to and including failing to condemn certain acts of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Once again, you're demanding that people apologize for someone that they had never even heard of before a day ago. I hope you understand how that invalidates your argument.

Lame excuse, I would expect our elected officials to have knowledge of a militia inspired attack.

As for this accusation of 'enabler,' unless Willie had just walked out of a Democratic party office where he was the guest of honor before committing his crimes, the way the Proud Boys once walked out a GOP office before committing one of their crimes, then you might want to look in the mirror there.

I already called out Trump as distinct and different for this very reason

I know that Republicans like to say that all liberals and Democrats are extremists (antifa or socialists or both somehow), but the easily observable reality is that it's the Republicans who have elected an extremist leader as President, while the Democratic frontrunner to that is (yet again) a soft-spoken moderate. It's the Republicans who invite extremists into their party offices, like they did with the Proud Boys, or even into the White House, as Trump did just this past weekend. It's the Republican politicians, especially the Republican President, who engage in irresponsible and inciteful rhetoric every day. Up to and including failing to condemn certain acts of violence.

You are not a student of history. You’re lamenting the GOP embrace of fringe extremism while pleading ignorance to the chain of events that led to this moment, and Democrats are partially to blame for paving that path.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

Sadly, I will be one of the ones who will have to clean up this mess. What will you be doing other than moving goal posts and carrying water?

 

[Moonbeam]

Once again, you're demanding that people apologize for someone that they had never even heard of before a day ago. I hope you understand how that invalidates your argument.

As for this accusation of 'enabler,' unless Willie had just walked out of a Democratic party office where he was the guest of honor before committing his crimes, the way the Proud Boys once walked out a GOP office before committing one of their crimes, then you might want to look in the mirror there.

I know that Republicans like to say that all liberals and Democrats are extremists (antifa or socialists or both somehow), but the easily observable reality is that it's the Republicans who have elected an extremist leader as President, while the Democratic frontrunner to that is (yet again) a soft-spoken moderate. It's the Republicans who invite extremists into their party offices, like they did with the Proud Boys, or even into the White House, as Trump did just this past weekend. It's the Republican politicians, especially the Republican President, who engage in irresponsible and inciteful rhetoric every day. Up to and including failing to condemn certain acts of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

As someone, me personally, who is of the opinion that the authoritarian left is dangerous and can too easily be given a pass by the left generally, this 'both sides equally manifest politically' at this stage in our history is a viewpoint that is bull shit as your post suggests in my opinion. I can explain it in no other way than to assume it is predated by a more generalized antipathy to the left generally, accompanied by a childhood conditioning based on the fear of non-conformity.

 

[Vic]

Lame excuse, I would expect our elected officials to have knowledge of a militia inspired attack.

I already called out Trump as distinct and different for this very reason

You are not a student of history. You’re lamenting the GOP embrace of fringe extremism while pleading ignorance to the chain of events that led to this moment, and Democrats are partially to blame for paving that path.

Sadly, I will be one of the ones who will have to clean up this mess. What will you be doing other than moving goal posts and carrying water?

Yes, it's all the Democrats' fault that the Republicans have embraced extremism..

You're not cleaning up any messes, guy, you're blaming everyone else for our current mess except for those actually responsible.

 

[Vic]

As someone, me personally, who is of the opinion that the authoritarian left is dangerous and can too easily be given a pass by the left generally, this 'both sides equally manifest politically' at this stage in our history is a viewpoint that is bull shit as your post suggests in my opinion. I can explain it in no other way than to assume it is predated by a more generalized antipathy to the left generally, accompanied by a childhood conditioning based on the fear of non-conformity.

Or maybe some people are just lazy and take shortcuts to thinking which, among other things, leads them to believe that huge diverse groups like 'the left' and 'the right' are monolithic and entirely like-minded. Such thinking also assists in demonizing and dehumanizing others, and in avoiding having any form of intelligent or honest discussion with others.

But hey, speaking of extremist political divisiveness, I need to go check out the President's latest tweet about how American citizens who say things he disagrees with aren't "Real Americans" and should be forcibly deported. I'll leave you guys to continue talking about how this misguided fool, and this "the left" that failed to condemn him sufficient to your insatiable satisfaction (just like the OP said the mainstream media had ignored this incident even though it was headline news across the country), is a greater threat to freedom than a President who wants to deport American citizens because of their speech.

 

[brandonbull]

You got your russian passport already? Why dont you fuck off then.

I'm not the guy that keeps voting and supporting for the party that has been overly friendly to the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and N.K. for the last several decades.

 

[Moonbeam]

Or maybe some people are just lazy and take shortcuts to thinking which, among other things, leads them to believe that huge diverse groups like 'the left' and 'the right' are monolithic and entirely like-minded. Such thinking also assists in demonizing and dehumanizing others, and in avoiding having any form of intelligent or honest discussion with others.

But hey, speaking of extremist political divisiveness, I need to go check out the President's latest tweet about how American citizens who say things he disagrees with aren't "Real Americans" and should be forcibly deported. I'll leave you guys to continue talking about how this misguided fool, and this "the left" that failed to condemn him sufficient to your insatiable satisfaction (just like the OP said the mainstream media had ignored this incident even though it was headline news across the country), is a greater threat to freedom than a President who wants to deport American citizens because of their speech.

I think you use the words lazy and taking shortcuts in thinking to describe what the neuroscientist community would call low level thinking, a fear of the uncertainty that can result when moral values are not viewed as black and white. It is at that point in conservative mentation that rationalization replaces critical thinking. The underpinning of the phenomenon is protection of ego identification and the preservation of herd mentality powerfully conditioned by punishment and verbal abuse of children. I hope it was clear that in my opinion at least, at this moment in American history the right, far more than the left, is engaged in madness and is a real and present threat. It is the depth and dedication to that madness that drives the left to extremes and where the far greater immorality lies, as I see it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Yes, it's all the Democrats' fault that the Republicans have embraced extremism..

You're not cleaning up any messes, guy, you're blaming everyone else for our current mess except for those actually responsible.

Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. There is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[nickqt]

A short Google search would tell you everything you need to know.

On this we can agree

In the case of this story, a militant leftist went from anger to action due to irresponsible rhetoric from Democrat politicians. Last I checked, none have condemned this act of violence.

You are part of the problem, enabler.

I wasn't aware I was a Democrat(sic) politician who hadn't condemned the attack.

Oh, right, I'm not a Democrat(sic) politician.

Try harder.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm not the guy that keeps voting and supporting for the party that has been overly friendly to the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and N.K. for the last several decades.

This opinion sounds to me to be the result of massive conditioning. I personally can't take you seriously. I do believe, however, that it would be better for you not to be so deluded and for your sake, then, I hope that whatever it is that prevents you from deeper introspection that would make what I think I see more obvious to you ameliorates to some degree. Life is better without a stick up your ass, as they say.

 

[Moonbeam]

Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. There is plenty of blame to go around.

The whole of your mentality rests on the notion of blame. Nobody is to blame for anything. Without real self awareness people are asleep, subject to motivations and impulses they have no control over. All this is the result of being blamed as a child and needing now to hide that pain and shame by projecting that blame on others. Stripped of that notion that others are to blame, you would come face to face with your real, your deep, and your unconscious pain. You would become conscious of your own self hate, and that, my dear friend, is the last thing you will ever want to do.

There is no guilt to go around. There are only the unconscious reactions of people deeply asleep. You may as well blame yourself for your dreams. So, it is actually you who is to blame for all the blame and the only way out is to forgive yourself. If you are a Christian you may have a head start but then maybe not. The only way you can be forgiven is if you were never guilty of sin. No sin, no blame, no good and evil. There is only divine being. Happy trails to you until we meet again.....

 

[Vic]

Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Which history - specifically - am I being ignorant of? Certainly not McCarthyism.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not the guy that keeps voting and supporting for the party that has been overly friendly to the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and N.K. for the last several decades.

Not a Republican then. OK

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

But hey, speaking of extremist political divisiveness, I need to go check out the President's latest tweet about how American citizens who say things he disagrees with aren't "Real Americans" and should be forcibly deported.

I'm reminded of this wonderfully improvised moment...

Mein Fuhrer indeed.