In defense of flogging

[Cogman]

http://chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/

I listened to an interview with the author on the radio and thought it was pretty interesting.

The notion that flogging would be a better alternative to a long prison sentence is pretty fascinating. The author brought up the example of Bernie Madoff. Yes, he needs to be punished, but why should WE be the ones paying for him? What does a prison sentence really do in this circumstance? If Madoff was released from prison right now he would not be able to repeat his crime.

The guy makes a lot of good points. His main reason for proposing this is because our prison systems are bad enough that sending someone to jail substantially increases their chances of committing another crime, it doesn't reform at all. So why not beat them and be done with it?

I agree with him, why are we wasting time and money on people like Madoff? Why not just beat them, let the public know about their crime, and release them again.

 

[ichy]

I'm completely in favor of it. Singapore still canes convicts, and they have some of the lowest crime rates in the world (in a densely populated urban area no less.)

 

[Infohawk]

A lot of people would take flogging over a long prison sentence. I don't think this would deter anyone except minor criminals who are already scared at the prospect of being raped in prison which, true or not, most people believe happens at this point. I don't see a gang banger, drug addict, or mentally ill person being deterred.

Comparing Sinagapore to the US is apples and oranges. Compare crime rates in Singapore to somewhere like Japan where they have a similar culture and similar standard of living. Japan doesn't have caning (as far as I know) and it's considered a very safe country.

 

[JTsyo]

I would say corporal punishment should be used for small crimes not ones that warrant 15 years in prison. Maybe a hybrid system with corporal punishment and lower term in prison.

 

[Cogman]

A lot of people would take flogging over a long prison sentence. I don't think this would deter anyone except minor criminals who are already scared at the prospect of being raped in prison which, true or not, most people believe happens at this point. I don't see a gang banger, drug addict, or mentally ill person being deterred.

Well, the point of the book is that prison doesn't deter these people either. In fact, besides punishment and removing these people off the street, the prison system doesn't achieve any of its goals.

Heck, even using caning on crimes that would have resulted in like 0->2years prison time would probably be preferable and much cheaper to do than what we are currently doing. It would probably be just as effective.

Comparing Sinagapore to the US is apples and oranges. Compare crime rates in Singapore to somewhere like Japan where they have a similar culture and similar standard of living. Japan doesn't have caning (as far as I know) and it's considered a very safe country.

Agreed, You really can't compare one countries crime stats against another (for many reasons).

 

[Infohawk]

Well, the point of the book is that prison doesn't deter these people either. In fact, besides punishment and removing these people off the street, the prison system doesn't achieve any of its goals.

"Removing people off the street" is exactly the goal that prison terms accomplish and that caning doesn't. That's huge!

 

[WHAMPOM]

The USA has a forty year history of decreasing crime rate, yet more people in prison (percentage wise) then ever. We have a prison industry here in the USofA don't screw with it.

 

[Kirby]

"Removing people off the street" is exactly the goal that prison terms accomplish and that caning doesn't. That's huge!

Rebar instead of bamboo? :biggrin:

 

[Cogman]

I would say corporal punishment should be used for small crimes not ones that warrant 15 years in prison. Maybe a hybrid system with corporal punishment and lower term in prison.

IDK, even some bigger white collar crimes could warrant corporal punishment over jail time.

Beat the person, take their stuff and give it to the victim, and let them rebuild their life. That would significantly decrease the cost of crime to the public and will be just about as good as what we are doing now.

 

[Cogman]

"Removing people off the street" is exactly the goal that prison terms accomplish and that caning doesn't. That's huge!

Are prison terms always warranted? I don't think we should get rid of all prison time, all violent crimes should result in prison time. However, non-violent crimes are another story.

 

[woolfe9999]

http://chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/
I agree with him, why are we wasting time and money on people like Madoff? Why not just beat them, let the public know about their crime, and release them again.

On account of the 8th Amendment maybe? I can see us allowing the convicted to choose flogging over the jail sentence, but if it is mandatory, then it's going to be unconstitutional.

 

[Infohawk]

I don't think we should get rid of all prison time, all violent crimes should result in prison time. However, non-violent crimes are another story.

As I said earlier I suspect prison terms do deter non-violent types. If I were a young scam artist, I might very well take the risk of being caned for the ridiculous riches that Madoff enjoyed while he was ahead. I would be a lot less likely to risk a life in prison. Wouldn't you? I'm sure it hurts like hell but one quick punishment is like ripping off a bandaid. It's no fun but it's over quickly and not that bad.

 

[piasabird]

Why not just burn him over a bed of hot coals, or make him pick up trash along the highway or something like that. There is no amount of physical torture that would be good enough for Bernie. A bullet in the head would be an appropriate punishment. In some asian cultures they would wipe out 3 generations or all of his offspring and his wife and his parents. That might be appropriate in such a case since most of the family was involved in his business/coverup.

 

[Cogman]

On account of the 8th Amendment maybe? I can see us allowing the convicted to choose flogging over the jail sentence, but if it is mandatory, then it's going to be unconstitutional.

Which is more cruel. 5 years in prison or 5 painful minutes with a whip? I would argue that a physical pain is much less damaging than an emotional/mental one.

 

[Cogman]

As I said earlier I suspect prison terms do deter non-violent types. If I were a young scam artist, I might very well take the risk of being caned for the ridiculous riches that Madoff enjoyed while he was ahead.

Well, the potential of prison time obviously isn't deterring Scam artists from existing. I doubt they would see a huge influx just because the punishment changed.

I would be a lot less likely to risk a life in prison. Wouldn't you? I'm sure it hurts like hell but one quick punishment is like ripping off a bandaid. It's no fun but it's over quickly and not that bad.

It depends on how desperate or addicted I am. I sort of doubt that the people that do these things are actually thinking about future consequences.

 

[Infohawk]

Well, the potential of prison time obviously isn't deterring Scam artists from existing. I doubt they would see a huge influx just because the punishment changed.

No punishment is perfect. I think it's very likely our current punishment deters a fair amount of people each day that would otherwise steal something or do some other non-violent offense. Anyway, we're not necessarily disagreeing on a whole lot but I just don't see flogging being that useful in this country.

 

[woolfe9999]

Which is more cruel. 5 years in prison or 5 painful minutes with a whip? I would argue that a physical pain is much less damaging than an emotional/mental one.

You can argue it all you want, but in our jurisprudence, long jail sentences have never been held to violate the 8th amendment. Only the infliction of physical pain OR unusual forms of pscyhological torment (i.e. locking someone in solitary for 8 years) have been held to violate the Constitution. It probably has to do with how we view our civic ethics in western society, and it may be an arbitrary double standard, but it's one we've adhered to for a long time.

 

[ichy]

Are prison terms always warranted? I don't think we should get rid of all prison time, all violent crimes should result in prison time. However, non-violent crimes are another story.

Non-violent crimes don't seem so minor when you're the victim.

IMO the only true "victimless crimes" out there are simple drug possession. The War on Drugs is an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Cogman]

Non-violent crimes don't seem so minor when you're the victim.

It depends on the crime. For someone that is a victim of a crime, the most they want is reparations for the damages they've received. Rather than throwing the person into jail, why not pull the money out of his account if he has it or claim it from his paycheck.

IMO the only true "victimless crimes" out there are simple drug possession. The War on Drugs is an unmitigated disaster.

Perhaps, I can't think of another good example of a victimless crime. But I can think of a lot of crimes that don't always have victims (though, they could easily). For example, speeding.

 

[ichy]

Perhaps, I can't think of another good example of a victimless crime. But I can think of a lot of crimes that don't always have victims (though, they could easily). For example, speeding.

Shooting a gun at a crowd of people doesn't have victims as long as you're a crappy shot and don't hit anyone.

 

[Cogman]

Shooting a gun at a crowd of people doesn't have victims as long as you're a crappy shot and don't hit anyone.

Yes, but it is a violent crime which I specifically said should be a jailable offense. I didn't say that "all victimless crimes should have no jail time". Heck, I didn't even say that all non-violent crimes should have no jail time.

 

[Axon]

Some people pay to get flogged. Just sayin'