In a world without Microsoft... (POLL)

Placer14

Platinum Member
Sep 17, 2001
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Hey, a friend and I were discussing the state of the software world and what impact Microsoft had. There were two basic point made and I'd like some of your opinions...

1. In a world sans Microsoft, we might not have progressed quite as fast/far software-wise.
2. However, in a world sans Microsoft, would we come to expect buggy software as an everyday thing in software dev?

Since, my point was the 2nd, i'll elaborate. Any network admin knows that if you try to run an NT server that for it to be a fairly bugfree OS, you'd need to at least install 4-5 SPs. I don't know any other software company that puts out as much buggy software as microsoft and because MS Software is so widely used, people come to expect as such. I suppose maybe this is a marketing scheme MS setup. Set their expectations low and when we do really good, it'll blow them away?

Would Open-Source projects be around (or as popular as they are) without Mircosoft. A big reason open-source was a solution, is because people were sick of having to rely on buggy software and wanted to make a difference. If buggy software weren't around, would people still collaborate so intensely on this type of project?

Discuss.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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Hmm I lived and worked in the world before Microsoft and can tell you that even then there was buggy software. Most large mainframe shops had reps on site or on call to cure the buggy software along with broken hardware in those days and paid dearly for it annually.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Free competition creates better software by default IMO. Monopoly just stagnates innovation.
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
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106
If it wasn't Microsoft, it would've been someone else. I'm just glad it wasn't Apple.
 

BennyD

Banned
Sep 1, 2002
2,068
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i don't like microsoft, but there's not much you can do about it

if they were not around, i think there would be a better standard of software due to competition
 

MrBond

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2000
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I don't know any other software company that puts out as much buggy software as microsoft
Have you bought any games lately? It's not uncommon for a game to be released to retail and have a patch that same day. Usually with many patches following. Blizzard is a good example of this. Their games hook people for a long time, new bugs are found, new patches are required.

The big difference between windows and other software programs is that most other software programs aren't used every time the computer is booted up or used by the sheer number of people Windows is. With those kinds of numbers, there's bound to be all kinds of crazy bugs. I am of the opinion that if OSX or Linux had the number of users Windows had, the patch situation would be similar.
 

Placer14

Platinum Member
Sep 17, 2001
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Originally posted by: MrBond
I don't know any other software company that puts out as much buggy software as microsoft
Have you bought any games lately? It's not uncommon for a game to be released to retail and have a patch that same day. Usually with many patches following. Blizzard is a good example of this. Their games hook people for a long time, new bugs are found, new patches are required.

The big difference between windows and other software programs is that most other software programs aren't used every time the computer is booted up or used by the sheer number of people Windows is. With those kinds of numbers, there's bound to be all kinds of crazy bugs. I am of the opinion that if OSX or Linux had the number of users Windows had, the patch situation would be similar.

Granted, but I feel in relation to the amount of software produced vs. the amount of it being buggy....i think Microsoft takes the lead here. I know games aren't always bug-free, but I think i'd have bettedr chance of finding bug-free games/anything else than i would of finding bug-free MS software.

I mean, especially in light of such a HUGE security issue as that of the MS Word program...I can almost justify them not supporting Word 97. It would not be beneficial to support such an old piece of software. But the fact that such a large bug was overlooked for so long must say soemthing. And I do realize the complexity of alot of MS software....but in comparison, I think most any Oracle software is on the same level (if not higher) as far as complexity goes and don't know of any bugs that have been this severe. (Maybe i'm just ignorant, please prove me wrong.)
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: PliotronX
If it wasn't Microsoft, it would've been someone else. I'm just glad it wasn't Apple.
Bingo. The nature of computing pretty much necessitates a common OS. Look at how much trouble we used to have sharing files between x86 and Mac. Someone else would have come up with an OS that would become the de-facto standard and they would have behaved in a manner similar to MS. Granted, right now cross-platform file sharing is much easier than it used to be, but would any of you have really wanted to have to deal with 10-12 different OS's back in the early 1990's? There's got to be some sort of standard and if it weren't Windows, it would be something else. If MS had never existed, someone else would have taken its place, it's not like we'd have a whole bunch of different OS's instead.

ZV
 

yakko

Lifer
Apr 18, 2000
25,455
2
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Originally posted by: Placer14
I mean, especially in light of such a HUGE security issue as that of the MS Word program...I can almost justify them not supporting Word 97. It would not be beneficial to support such an old piece of software. But the fact that such a large bug was overlooked for so long must say soemthing. And I do realize the complexity of alot of MS software....but in comparison, I think most any Oracle software is on the same level (if not higher) as far as complexity goes and don't know of any bugs that have been this severe. (Maybe i'm just ignorant, please prove me wrong.)

That huge bug was overlooked for so long because it was not that huge and there probably has not really been anyone affected by it. All software is buggy. The more people you get using it and with a large pert of them not really knowing how to use a computer makes some of those bugs really stand out. For example, most people complain about how much their Windows 98 computers crash yet mine almost never does. It is because I know how to install patches and I don't just install every free program I find on the internet (Bonsi Buddy, Gator and all the other spyware crap). This makes a big difference in how your computer performs.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
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with the sheer amount of programmers out there, and software companies releasing buggy software, and crappy hardware companies releasing crappy drivers, etc etc etc, it's a miracle operating systems work at all
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
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I shudder a world without Microsoft. Go on any IBM ASCI White or AS/400 mainframe computer. A simple task like moving/renaming/creating a file is a pain and still is. I'm glad someone actually thought about creating a nice and simple way to interact with computers rather than a stupid clumsy way.

Many people that hate microsoft never even owned or touched a computer in the pre-Microsoft era.
 

LH

Golden Member
Feb 16, 2002
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All software is buggy. Theres not a piece of software thats out there that isnt. Almost all bugs go unnoticed. Obviously it wasnt a huge bug if it took so long to be noticed, sure its implications look huge but not many people were effected by it thus it wasnt really huge.
 

Placer14

Platinum Member
Sep 17, 2001
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Originally posted by: yakko
That huge bug was overlooked for so long because it was not that huge

Considering what it is capible of, i feel that this is a big deal. Especially that now it is out in the open and people/hacker/whoever know about it and how to use it. But i digress.

Granted most people don't know how to use a computer. But I've had problems with various MS products that were no fault of my own and I'd like to think that I'm a knowledgable computer user. So, although it's a valid point, it's not a response that answers to why other people experience these problems.

And to respond to another point...if it wasn't MS, then it would be someone else. I think my point was more along these lines....I don't care if it was MS or not, just that they would release more stable/bug-free software. If their software was better (in that they weren't as buggy), would open-source communities not be as active, would sites like www.fvckmicrosoft.com not exist, etc. And how else would that effect that nature of the software industry as it stands today?
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
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"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a brick tied to its head." - unknown?

Q. How many Microsoft engineers does it take to write a good software program?
A. More

Definition: Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
 

yakko

Lifer
Apr 18, 2000
25,455
2
0
Originally posted by: Placer14
Originally posted by: yakko
That huge bug was overlooked for so long because it was not that huge

Considering what it is capible of, i feel that this is a big deal. Especially that now it is out in the open and people/hacker/whoever know about it and how to use it. But i digress.

It is only a usable bug by someone who knows what is stored on your computer. Sure if enough radom ones were went out something may come back but don't count on it.
 

Trezza

Senior member
Sep 18, 2002
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If your going to assume that microsoft never came to be there is also the possiblity that something much much worse than it could have come about. I think a better point would be what if microsoft had a close competitor that was widely excepted like AMD vs Intel. I'm not talking about mac's here but a similar program to windows. I don't think anything on the market right now is a big competitor to microsoft if there was i think that windows would become better and faster as well as cheaper. Just look at what processor can do today compared to when AMD first came out. If we had OS progress like that each computer prolly would have AI.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
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Micro$oft is the Borg of the software world. The quality and integrity of their software aside, they have engaged in illegal, predatory business practices through their entire corporate existance, long before, and long since, their encounter with Netscape.

There would be plenty of other, similar predators in world without Micro$oft, but that is not an excuse for allowing the evil we know about to continue unchecked. This is especially true where so much of the world's commerce and security are inextricably tied to the OS monster they have foisted upon us. The current rash of serious security holes and patches involve identity theft, credit card vulnerabilities and a hole that allows the malicious deletion of entire directories on your hard drive. If the 133 MB d/l for Win XP wasn't enough to make the point, think about this one from 1998:
Software glitches leave Navy Smart Ship dead in the water

By Gregory Slabodkin
GCN Staff

The Navy's Smart Ship technology may not be as smart as the service contends. Although PCs have reduced workloads for sailors aboard the Aegis missile cruiser USS Yorktown, software glitches resulted in system failures and crippled ship operations, according to Navy officials.

Navy brass have called the Yorktown Smart Ship pilot a success in reducing manpower, maintenance and costs. The Navy began running shipboard applications under Microsoft Windows NT so that fewer sailors would be needed to control key ship functions.

But the Navy last fall learned a difficult lesson about automation: The very information technology on which the ships depend also makes them vulnerable. The Yorktown last September suffered a systems failure when bad data was fed into its computers during maneuvers off the coast of Cape Charles, Va.

The ship had to be towed into the Naval base at Norfolk, Va., because a database overflow caused its propulsion system to fail, according to Anthony DiGiorgio, a civilian engineer with the Atlantic Fleet Technical Support Center in Norfolk. "We are putting equipment in the engine room that we cannot maintain and, when it fails, results in a critical failure," DiGiorgio said. It took two days of pierside maintenance to fix the problem.

The Yorktown has been towed into port after other systems failures, he said.

Not officially

Atlantic Fleet officials acknowledged that the Yorktown last September experienced what they termed "an engineering local area network casualty," but denied that the ship's systems failure lasted as long as DiGiorgio said. The Yorktown was dead in the water for about two hours and 45 minutes, fleet officials said, and did not have to be towed in.

"This is the only time this casualty has occurred and the only propulsion casualty involved with the control system since May 2, 1997, when software configuration was frozen," Vice Adm. Henry Giffin, commander of the Atlantic Fleet's Naval Surface Force, reported in an Oct. 24, 1997, memorandum. Giffin wrote the memo to describe "what really happened in hope of clearing the scuttlebutt" surrounding the incident, he noted.

The Yorktown lost control of its propulsion system because its computers were unable to divide by the number zero, the memo said. The Yorktown's Standard Monitoring Control System administrator entered zero into the data field for the Remote Data Base Manager program. That caused the database to overflow and crash all LAN consoles and miniature remote
terminal units, the memo said.

The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and change the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet officials said. But "the Yorktown's failure in September 1997 was not as simple as reported," DiGiorgio said.

"If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is immune to the character of the data it processes," he wrote in the June U.S. Naval Institute's Proceedings Magazine. "Your $2.95 calculator, for example, gives you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and does not stop executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the computers on the Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple failure."

The Navy reduced the Yorktown crew by 10 percent and saved more than $2.8 million a year using the computers. The ship uses dual 200-MHz Pentium Pros from Intergraph Corp. of Huntsville, Ala. The PCs and server run NT 4.0 over a high-speed, fiber-optic LAN.

Blame it on the OS

But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT operating system is the source of the Yorktown's computer problems.

NT applications aboard the Yorktown provide damage control, run the ship's control center on the bridge, monitor the engines and navigate the ship when under way.

"Using Windows NT, which is known to have some failure modes, on a warship is similar to hoping that luck will be in our favor," DiGiorgio said.

Pacific and Atlantic fleets in March 1997 selected NT 4.0 as the standard OS for both networks and PCs as part of the Navy's Information Technology for the 21st Century initiative. Current guidance approved by the Navy's chief information officer calls for all new applications to run under NT.

Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, said there have been numerous software failures associated with NT aboard the Yorktown.

"Refining that is an ongoing process," Redman said. "Unix is a better system for control of equipment and machinery, whereas NT is a better system for the transfer of information and data. NT has never been fully refined and there are times when we have had shutdowns that resulted from NT."

Hauled in

The Yorktown has been towed into port several times because of the systems failures, he said.

"Because of politics, some things are being forced on us that without political pressure we might not do, like Windows NT," Redman said. "If it were up to me I probably would not have used Windows NT in this particular application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that has less of a tendency to go down." Although Unix is more reliable, Redman said, NT may become more reliable with time.

The Navy is moving the service's command and control applications from Unix to NT as part of IT-21. Under IT-21, the Navy also plans to modernize ships in the Atlantic and Pacific fleets with asynchronous transfer mode LANs. Large ATM networks running NT have already been installed on the USS Abraham Lincoln and USS Essex.

But DiGiorgio said the LANs might experience a chain reaction of computer failures like those experienced on the Yorktown. That domino effect is inherent to the system design of shipboard LANs, he said.

"There is very little segregation of error when software shares bad data," DiGiorgio said. "Instead of one computer knocking off on the Yorktown, they all did, one after the other. What if this happened in actual combat?" Although the Yorktown did not have backup systems,
Redman said that future Smart Ships will have systems redundancy to ensure that ships can continue to operate. But DiGiorgio said that the Smart Ship project needs to do more engineering up front.

"Installing a control system on a warship and resolving problems as the project progresses is a costly and naive process," DiGiorgio wrote in the Proceedings article. "Now, with the top people rotated off the Smart Ship Project, it would be wise for the Navy to investigate this fiasco more fully."

Redman has a different perspective. "If it were me, I wouldn't say all the things that Tony [DiGiorgio] has said out of discretion and consideration for being a long-term employee," he said. "But I will say this about Tony, he's a very bright engineer."

"Everybody plays the obedience role where you cannot criticize the system," said DiGiorgio, a self-described whistle-blower. "I'm not that kind of guy."
I don't know about you, but if I were on a Naval warship in the midst of battle, the last two things I would want to happen at the same time would be a BSOD and someone yelling, "INCOMING! :Q

Any company that is in business to profit from our dependence on their products owes us a far higher level of both corporate and social responsibility than Micro$oft has ever shown. :disgust:
 

Placer14

Platinum Member
Sep 17, 2001
2,225
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76
Originally posted by: Trezza
I don't think anything on the market right now is a big competitor to microsoft if there was i think that windows would become better and faster as well as cheaper.

Or just buy them out. :disgust:

*edit:
It is only a usable bug by someone who knows what is stored on your computer. Sure if enough radom ones were went out something may come back but don't count on it.

Oh...well, it's not like the install paths aren't cookie cutter enough that I could find your registry and just get wahtever info i needed from there.
 

dawks

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,071
2
81
I don't know any other software company that puts out as much buggy software as microsoft

Such an arrogant and ignorant thing to say.

The day you come out with an OS as powerful, capable, stable, and feature rich, is the day you can say something like this.

I would like to see you trouble-shoot 75 million lines of code and have it 100% bug free.

Every OS has bugs and glitches, you only see stories about the microsoft bugs because they effect so many people. Doesnt mean every other piece of software is perfect.
 

Originally posted by: Harvey
I don't know about you, but if I were on a Naval warship in the midst of battle, the last two things I would want to happen at the same time would be a BSOD and someone yelling, "INCOMING! :Q

More than likely, they wouldnt yell incoming, 1) they use the word "Vampire" and 2) they couldnt see it if there was a BSOD =)
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: PliotronX
If it wasn't Microsoft, it would've been someone else. I'm just glad it wasn't Apple.
Bingo. The nature of computing pretty much necessitates a common OS. Look at how much trouble we used to have sharing files between x86 and Mac. Someone else would have come up with an OS that would become the de-facto standard and they would have behaved in a manner similar to MS. Granted, right now cross-platform file sharing is much easier than it used to be, but would any of you have really wanted to have to deal with 10-12 different OS's back in the early 1990's? There's got to be some sort of standard and if it weren't Windows, it would be something else. If MS had never existed, someone else would have taken its place, it's not like we'd have a whole bunch of different OS's instead.

ZV

Truoble sharing files between x86 and Mac? Is x86 supposed to be an operating system? I'll assume that you meant to write "Windows" as x86 is a processor instruction set, used in many processors that run many different operating systems. Anyway, ssharing files between windows and OS X is easy. click "connect to server" type "smb://windowsmachine/sharename". There does have to be standards, and in fgat there are. There's a jpeg standard. There's standards for the fat filesystem. There's standards for TCP/IP networking. The OS doesn't have to bstandard as long as the file formats and network protocols it uses are standard, as that will allow connections to any other OS that uses the same standards. Right now, the only company I can think of that's using it's own standards for network protocols is Microsoft.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: dexvx
I shudder a world without Microsoft. Go on any IBM ASCI White or AS/400 mainframe computer. A simple task like moving/renaming/creating a file is a pain and still is. I'm glad someone actually thought about creating a nice and simple way to interact with computers rather than a stupid clumsy way.

Many people that hate microsoft never even owned or touched a computer in the pre-Microsoft era.

You do know that the GUI was invented at Xerox PARC and first implemented on desktop PCs by Apple don't you? Microsoft "borrowed" liberally from the original Mac OS when designing Windows up through 3.x. Win95 was the first version to pull ahead in terms of multitasking.

I don't "hate" Microsoft, but have made some less-than-fanboy comments about them in the "would you work at Microsoft" thread. And I've been around since the 8-bit days before the IBM PC was even released so yes I know what life was like before MS.

I'd love to see a world where there was a real competitor to MS, but they have been using their monopoly power to crush any potential competitors for over a decade.