Improving TV reception in remote location

[Fardringle]

Our family has a cabin up in the mountains and my father-in-law in particular likes to watch the evening news, and occasionally some other programs while we are there.


For several years we have had the following setup:
ClearStream 4 antenna approximately 25 feet off the ground on a pole lashed to the cabin’s chimney with several strong metal bands ratcheted down as tight as we can get them to prevent movement of the mast.

Channel Master CM7777 Titan2 preamp mounted just below the antenna on the pole, with the receiver at the other end of a good quality 30-foot coaxial cable next to the TV. (I don’t recall the rating on the cable or where I got it, but it had good ratings at the time.) I added the preamp after initially trying the setup with just the antenna. We didn’t get any usable signals at the TV so I added the amp and it did help somewhat.

Zinwell ZAT-970A digital converter box for the old analog only CRT TV that lives in the cabin. We’ve tried a digital TV as well to see if the converter was affecting the signal, but got the same results, and the last time we left an LCD TV there over the winter it did not survive the harsh freezing temperatures.


With this setup and a lot of very careful tuning of the direction of the antenna, we can sometimes pick up some of the OTA network channels from home that are about 75 miles away from the cabin. Generally when they do come in, the signal is decently strong and the picture is stable, but frequently there is either no signal at all, or a weak signal that results in severe pixilation or intermittent complete loss of picture.


This is the Signal Analysis Results for the location from TVFool.com. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903886cfedc842


We are interested in the network transmitters that are at 256° and about 75.5 miles away. Specifically, the ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS stations on channels 40, 38, 34, and 44. Currently, we almost never get any signal on channel 34 even when the others are working great. I’m not sure why that is but I thought I’d include the info in case it’s relevant. We’re not interested in the stations at 340° and 350° since those are just small local broadcasts from a couple of small towns in that direction.


I realize that this is definitely a fringe situation with the long distance, tall mountains between the transmitters and the cabin, and mildly hilly terrain around the cabin (although there is a large flat meadow immediately next to the cabin in the direction of the transmitters. What suggestions if any can you give me to try to pull in a better signal to make Dad happy? Inexpensive or free is always nice, but we’re not opposed to spending a bit of money if there’s a good chance of getting acceptable results.

 

[Thebobo]

I take it the small dish is out of the question because he wants the local channels? I'll admit I don't know much about this anymore but it got me looking since I want to retire in the hills as well. You ever think about the old school larger C band dishes? Check this link https://www.lyngsat.com/ maybe catch the local feed?

 

[Kartajan]

Given the fact that your desired channels are 2edge, that is the big issue to try and get around.
Usually, increasing height until you can get a LOS signal is best, but that depends on terrain.

Do you get significantly different numbers by changing the height value in tvfool?
If yes, height is your friend.
If not, maybe try out a yagi- style antenna like this: <I had an amazon link, but spam filter blocked me>
Xtreme Signal Long Range Yagi Style VHF/UHF HDTV Antenna (HDB91X)
or this:<I had an amazon link, but spam filter blocked me>
Amplified HD Digital Outdoor HDTV Antenna 150 Miles Long Range with Motorized 360 Degree Rotation, UHF/VHF/FM Radio with Infrared Remote Control

DIY'ers tend to use reflectors to focus the UHF signal on their antennae, I have even seen some recycle a Directv dish for that purpose...
https://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/reflector/Reflectors.html

 

[Fardringle]

We don't want to use satellite TV because all providers we've asked only do continuous year-round contracts and we don't want to pay for 12 months when we rarely use it more than 6 weekends per year.

I get maybe SLIGHTLY better results if I change the mast height to 50 feet http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903859e6d238d1 and a tiny bit better at 100 feet http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903892ec98b876, but its not really an option to go that tall. There's zero chance of ever getting true line of sight since there are 10-12,000+ foot mountains between the transmitters and the cabin location and the transmitters are at 9,060 feet and the cabin is at 8,250 feet.

I could maybe get it up to about 30 feet if I push the mast up higher but beyond that will need some significantly beefier and longer poles since it would push the bottom of the current mast out of the lower of the three mounting bands that I have on it now keeping it secured to the chimney. The relatively small surface area of the CM4 antenna already catches a lot of wind on windy days. I can't really use a solid reflector or a solid dish for the same reason. Higher than about 30 feet will also put it close to or over the top of nearby trees making it a more likely potential target for lightning. There aren't any trees in the direction of the transmitters, but there are trees on the other sides of the cabin. The mast is already grounded directly to the earth but I'd rather avoid that extra risk since it is clamped onto the cabin's chimney.

The first Yagi antenna you linked looks beefy and has good reviews and the 70+ mile reception range seems a lot more realistic than the 150+ miles claimed on the other one, particularly since TV signals generally don't propagate anywhere near that far. However, the little one does have generally good reviews as well and the lighter weight and smaller "footprint" might help with stability up high on windy days.

Do you have a recommendation on which one to use? If the first one is just better (better reception/better build quality) then I'll probably spring for a sturdier mast pole as well since the old one up there now does twist a bit in high winds and that would make me nervous with the relatively large area and wide center of gravity on that antenna.

 

[Kartajan]

I don't have a specific recommendation, since I have a different set of OTA requirements (I have an "omni-directional" rooftop antenna for my area)

I would say to make sure you get whichever from somewhere with a liberal return policy in the event the one you get is not effective enough...

(Every range based marketing is flat BS, but it does give you an idea to sensitivity. And as far as antennae go, bigger tends to be more sensitive..)

 

[Fardringle]

OK, thanks. I might see if I can find the big one locally just before our next trip so I can take it up and test it out before the return period expires.

Any suggestions for a sturdy but not too expensive mast pole to go along with it? The one I have now is about 15 feet long, with roughly 5 feet of that clamped against the side of the chimney, and it's just a simple 1" sectional aluminum (I think) pole with three 5 foot parts that stick together with a tapered insert at the end of each section. If I remember right, the clamp portions of the mounting bands are limited to about 1.25" inch poles.

 

[Thebobo]

I can imagine something like that would blow around to much and trying to keep a signal could be a problem? You could run some guy wires. Getting a long one piece pole could be a transport problem so maybe a local straight tree? Find an old used wood telephone pole locally?

Own a chainsaw?

 

[Kartajan]

https://www.amazon.com/CHANNEL-MAST...&qid=1526635310&sr=8-14&keywords=antenna+mast

 

[Billb2]

If you have cable (internet and TV) at home you may be able to stream cellular TV video to a cell phone and even display that on a TV.
I have Comcast TV and internet and can watch 600 or so channels on my iPhone from anywhere that has cell phone service.

 

[Fardringle]

Thanks, Kartajan. I'll look at that mast.

Billb2, streaming is available since I can actually get an LTE signal up there most of the time, but that uses a LOT of data which gets expensive pretty quickly and wouldn't really work for the times when my father-in-law goes up there on his own (which he does regularly) since he'd have trouble making it work properly.

We do have several chainsaws at the cabin, but I'd really prefer to not put up a new independent pole (tree or old utility pole) for multiple reasons. The ground up there is too rocky to effectively dig a hole and digging a proper trench to run conduit and cable back to the cabin would be a nightmare. We don't want anything standing on the west side of the cabin (the direction of the TV transmitters since that's currently a clear view of the meadow where we watch the frequent moose and deer herds) and there are thick trees on the other three sides so no realistic place to put up a pole there. Using a live tree would be troublesome at best since they have extremely dense branches and often sway a lot at the top in the wind...

 

[Fardringle]

I realize I'm being wishy-washy about this, but I'd really like to sort things out before the next trip to the cabin since it would be really annoying to get up there with something and have it not work, and be too late for any potential returns/exchanges. I've been looking a little more at the second antenna option that Kartajan posted, and while in the pictures it looks like a "toy", a lot of the reviews say they've had very good success pulling in stations in situations similar to mine over 70 miles and with mountains in the way. It would also be a LOT easier to install since it has a small profile so it wouldn't need a new mast and guy wires like the bigger YAGI antenna. It's also less expensive and right now includes a $19 antenna mast for free on a promotion from Amazon. The little mast wouldn't work at the cabin, but I could definitely use it for my antenna at home where I currently just have the antenna hanging from a hook on the wall.

That makes it really tempting, but I keep thinking of the old saying "When something seems too good to be true..."

Edit: Never mind. I just noticed that almost all of the good reviews are from several years ago, and almost all recent reviews are bad. I guess I'll stick with the HDB91X Yagi antenna and try to work out how to anchor it so it can't rotate too much in the wind. What source do you recommend for guy wires that won't give a new potential path for lightning since the wires would have to be attached to other parts of the metal cabin roof?

 

[Kartajan]

I would not worry about the metal in guy wires, but I would consider a lightning arrestor on your coax like this https://www.amazon.com/Generic-Lightning-Protection-Arrester-Arrestor/dp/B00ZC1ULTW to help protect inside equipment.

Making sure everything is properly grounded is critical. Lightning is attracted to the highest point, and a strike will slag anything it hits. The point of an arrestor is to keep the strike from causing a fire (and to make an insurance claim much easier).

 

[Fardringle]

I have a lightning arrestor on the coax and a separate 6ga copper going straight from near the top of the mast to a 6 foot spike buried in the ground. I added those when I put up the original antenna years ago. Thank you for the reminder, though. Those are important if not already there.

We've decided to head up to the cabin for the long holiday weekend next week so I went ahead and ordered the HDB91X from Amazon (free 2 day shipping). I'll let you know how it works compared to the old CM4 if I get it up successfully without falling off the very steep cabin roof.

 

[Kartajan]

 

[Fardringle]

Yeah, something like that. We used to actually do that regularly with the old shingled roof, and frequently risked similar falls from more than double the height on a roof probably 3 times as tall. Installing a metal roof was one of the best decisions we made. Without it, it wasn't uncommon to have 3-5 feet of snow or more piled up on the roof. Now it rarely collects any snow even in the middle of winter.

 

[Ken g6]

Theoretically, you could set up a TV tuner card at home, set up VLC to stream from it, and stream that with your phone. That way you could control the bandwidth usage by varying the compression and video size.

But I've never had much luck setting up VLC for streaming.

 

[Fardringle]

I'm calling this a huge win!

With the old antenna today, there was no signal at all on channels 34 and 38, and 35-40% quality on 40, and 5% quality on 42 with very low signal strength, and 45% quality on channel 44.

With the new antenna mounted in a much more accessible spot (I'm allergic to ladders) and actually a few feet lower than the old spot, I'm getting weak but usable 15-20% quality on 34 that has NEVER worked before, 40-50% quality on 40, 95-100% on 38 (yay! This channel was the main goal and very intermittent in the past!), 80-85% on 42, and 80-90% on 44. Sweet!

I was also able to pick up a half dozen new channels that I haven't seen before, but they are all Spanish stations so they aren't a real bonus since nobody in the family but me speaks Spanish. Still, the channels we really want are all coming in much better now. Thank you!

 

[Fardringle]

Well...it WAS a win. For about 24 hours or so. Then all signals almost completely disappeared except for Channel 34 that never worked in the past. 34 still works fine, which is weird, but everything else has dropped to 3-5% signal quality or no signal at all. I verified that the antenna is still aimed properly and all cable connections are secure with no improvement. Any ideas?

I'm planning to replace the old coax cables with new stuff the next time we go up there to see if that helps, especially since the new antenna location will let me shorten the long cable from 50 feet (I was incorrect when I said originally that it was 30 feet) down to about 20-25 feet). However, I'm wondering if there might be something wrong with the pre-amp since I noticed that the pre-amp box was pretty warm when I went up to check on the antenna when the channels stopped working. I don't know of a way to test that without purchasing a different amp, though...

 

[Ken g6]

I've been inspired by this thread to set up a system where I can watch live TV on my phone. I got it working, but it's really complicated.

I just did some more research, and it looks like Plex can be set up to stream live TV from a tuner. I think you can also lower the bandwidth a lot. I got my bandwidth on my system down to "bad YouTube quality", which takes 8 hours of TV watching to use 1GB. But I'm not sure what Plex can do.

Edit: Apparently it requires a subscription. I'll keep working on my solution.

 

[Fardringle]

I like that idea, Ken, but it's really not feasible for this situation. While it's sometimes possible to get a mobile signal from Verizon at the cabin, those signals are even weaker and more intermittent than the TV antenna...

 

[Kartajan]

.... I don't know of a way to test that without purchasing a different amp, though...

The only simple way I see is to remove the preamp (or the power injector to it) and confirm that nothing changes.

If nothing changes with the preamp offline, then it is reasonable to assume that it is the problem. A cable problem would likely result in absolutely NO channels...

 

[Fardringle]

Yeah. I thought about doing that, but not until after we had left the cabin. I'll give it a shot along with the new shorter coax cables on the next trip. That probably won't be for a couple of months so I'll try to remember to report back then.

I'm wondering if it's a combination of the amp dying plus the 50 foot cable being a lot longer than it needs to be and the signal loss is just too much for the TV to get a good signal without the amp. The problem is that I really don't want to buy another amp and then get up there and discover that the amp isn't actually needed.

On a side note, just for kicks when I first assembled the antenna, I connected it directly to the TV converter box using a 3 foot coax cable and held the antenna up pointing in the general direction of the transmitters while inside the cabin at ground level and was able to pick up quite a few channels, so I'm hoping that a better quality (and shorter) long cable will be enough to make it work at least temporarily, even if the amp does need to be replaced.