Importance of education overated?

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
frostedflakes
I wish your father well. Although I hope he doesn't waste his potential trying to "provide" for his kids. If college is what all you kids want then maybe they should get a job or take out loads to build their own future. Just my look at it. Even in this economy there are countless opportunities for people in his situation.

Without getting too off-topic, I don't see any problem with helping the kids through college. As long as they are grateful and hard-working, I intend to do the same for my children, and I will be able to because my parents helped me out.

I wouldn't even be against student loans if it came to that, but they insist on helping with tuition. They don't want us to leave school shouldering tens of thousands worth of debt.

 

[ScottyB]

I think the most important advice an adult can give a kid is to drop out of school as young as possible. Eduction is the absolute least important aspect of life. I mean, just look at the amount of successful people that dropped out versus those that went through college. The numbers are staggering. For every college grad that earns a decent living, there are at least 50 high school dropouts doing far better. Look at the Amish, for example. They live like freaking kings! And smart. Have you ever compared the speech patterns of the average high school dropout and the average college grad? 9 times out of 10 the high school dropout will blow the college grad out of the water in oratory skill. Listening to a PhD recipient is so grating on the nerves with their complete lack of language skills. Gosh, if I could just rid myself of my awful degrees, I could finally feel like a success.

 

[Zenmervolt]

For every story like yours, there are hundreds that didn't turn out well. Yes, people who are more strongly motivated have better chances, but even they face greater challenges than those who have finished school. One of the biggest reasons that employers value a college degree is because it shows that the applicant is willing to work through situations that may be unpleasant for them. A degree indicates that the applicant isn't as likely to jump ship the instant something happens that they don't like.

ZV

 

[Jeff7]

I think the market will always have demand for people with and without degrees. But certain aspects of the market will also always require a thorough education in a relevant field. Medicine, scientific research, and engineering are three fields that come to mind immediately.

Some of those fields require very high-end math which you are going to be unable to pick up on-the-fly, especially if you never finished high school level math. More people educated in math and science means that our society can progress faster technologically. A better technological infrastructure improves quality of life for everyone.

 

[Reckoner]

A college diploma these days is what a high school diploma was ~25 years ago. It gets you a ticket to the show, but not necessarily the best seat.

 

[ed21x]

while I believe that hard work, discipline, and drive are the primary contributing factors to success, most job recruiters have to see the paper to prove that it exists in the person. If you simply tell someone that you are all of the above without backing it up, it is very difficult to do. A degree follows you wherever you go and can do the talking for you, if you havn't had the opportunity to prove yourself.

 

[kranky]

It's certainly possible to be successful without a high school education. But you asked if the importance of education is overrated, and that's a resounding NO.

I'm not sure you appreciate how fortunate you are to have had that level of success. It's simply not true that hard work and relationships are more important than education. Many, many doors are just not open to people without education.

If your daughter plans to open her own business and never need to work for anyone else, then perhaps it won't matter. But since most people work for others, and they work at many different jobs in their lifetime, just think about how the odds are going to be against your daughter.

Even if she plans to work at a trade, she will have a very hard time getting her foot in the door without an education. If there were many more jobs than there are candidates, that would be different. But why try to have a career where you are always lagging behind the candidates who have an education?

I would also argue that a college education would actually support the theory about hard work and relationships being useful. You form relationships in college that can be valuable throughout someone's career. And the degree proves that you can work hard.

 

[Auryg]

This is a tough issue, really. High school education is absolute trash- you don't 'learn' much at all. On top of that, they pile on so much homework/busywork you don't have much time to learn on your own, especially if you're in a sport or have a job.

That being said, I think it would be for the best to stick it out. My parents did fine without a college education too - we have land and a home that's worth well over 1 million dollars. However, my dad is in pretty bad health due to his hard job and my parents both worked much harder than a person should have to throughout their whole life. College will be better for your daughter; she'll learn more, and she'll probably have more free time too. If that doesn't work out for her, she can look into getting one of those two-year technician degrees of some sort, such as X-ray or ultrasound stuff. They pay well, it's a relaxed job, and the schooling you get is for the job you're going to do.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Jobs that will support a family of 6 without a high school degree are few and far between. All it takes is a simple look at statistics: the vast majority of people without a high school degree are going to live most of their lives near the poverty line. You may have gotten lucky, but despite what you may believe, hard work is only one part of the equation. Sometimes you simply have to be in the right place at the right time.

btw, what do you mean, "live very comfortably"? House is big enough that each child has their own bedroom? The kids get to go on nice vacations every year? The kids get to go to Europe on school trips? I thought I lived rather comfortably, and right now I'm struggling to figure out how I would be able to afford to send my younger son to both Alaska on a 2 weeks school trip, and to South Africa on another school sponsored trip (exotic big game hunt.) Heck, I'm hoping to figure out how to afford just one of those once in a lifetime opportunities for him. (I'd like to go on the Alaska trip myself & am hoping the two of us can do that one together.)

I had a chance to go to Europe with my school, it was a good experience but honestly as a kid it wasn't the most important thing for me. We had enough food on the table, parents that would spend time with us, and lived in a place that was good to grow up in. Sending your kid on expensive trips is much less important than some of the other things you can do for them.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
I myself never bought into the "be cool, stay in school" crap growing up. I ditched school as often as possable and dropped completely out by my sophomore year in high school. I could never understand the point of attendance = education so I chose not to play. Instead I worked my ass off and became the person I am today. I'm now the sole provider for my family of six and take care of my mother as well. We live very comfortably and my family wants for nothing, in fact I believe they are becoming to spoiled and pampered. So to my question,

My kids are very bright but don't like school. My eldest can't stand it. Me being a drop out agrees with her reasons but I can't let her know of course. It's been 15 years since I was in school and entering the workplace but I can't see anything that's changed. Life is still more about how hard you work and the relationships you develop versus what useless knowledge some idiotic teacher tried feeding you. Am I wrong?

If you're 30, you are an extreme outlier. That shit doesn't fly especially today, and if you kid drops out of the easiest institution on Earth called high school, he will be a complete failure.

 

[krunchykrome]

my kids are going to college; it's not an option

 

[Jumpem]

Extremely important. It doesn't have to be their number one priority growing up but they should be A or B students.

College is when it needs to be their absolute top priority. It is the bridge to getting a well paying job, and being successful in life.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
I know the statics and I believe they don't mean @#%$. People who are going to succeed in life will, those who aren't gonna do nothing won't. I completely agree with you on hard work being only part of success. The relationships you build is the other key. Luck has nothing to do with it. I was just as successful in my last career path until I decided I no longer wanted to continue it. I seen no long term personal satisfaction from it.
By successful I mean all my children have large rooms in our large house in a nice part of town. We vacation regularly and I have 0 debt., not even a car payment. Like I said earlier though, I'm kinda scared about it all now. Maybe my poor upbringing was a larger driving force behind my success then anything else. I never want my kids to go hungry or not have anything. Maybe it would be good for them though... That's an entire other thread I guess.

So, your claim is that the vast vast majority of high school drop-outs are lazy and don't try, and you were one of the few exceptions? And, yes, luck has a lot to do with life. There are relatively few decent paying jobs for high school dropouts. Being in the right place at the right time when one of those jobs opens up takes a bit of luck. And now, many years since you were a high school graduate, the choices are x-number of years of experience OR a high school degree. If your kids drop out, there are going to be even fewer opportunities than there were when you graduated. Believe in whatever you want. Most people without a high school degree are NOT going to be successful, no matter how hard they try.

If I were hiring for a position that really didn't require a high school degree, but for which I received 100 applications for, if 10 of those applicants had college degrees, or even spent some time in college, 50 of the applicants were high school graduates, 30 had GED's, and 10 were just plain high school drop-outs with no GED, I'd shitcan the 40 non-degree applicants. Glance carefully at those with some college experience or college degrees, and work my way down from there. I've got better things to do with my time than waste it interviewing high school drop-outs. That doesn't mean that I don't realize that there are many drop-outs who really are hard workers - but there are many more from that group who aren't.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
I'm 30. Everyone claims a "degree" is required but I guarantee any company in my field would pay me allot more than most because of my work ethic and knowledge.
I work for one of the largest company's in the US/world. Agriculture based. I'm in middle management now and see no problems advancing if I choose. And I will be completely retired at 55.

And to the ones pointing out my poor spelling/grammar. Thanks. Maybe I'll hire u someday as my secretary.

Well, on the opposite end, my company will not hire anyone (outside of menial positions) without a bachelor's degree.

 

[shortylickens]

I'm 29. Havent got my degree yet. I was in the Navy for 9 years and did two years worth of civilian jobs.
Its not absolutely required but I promise you will hit the glass ceiling very quickly without it.
My first job out of the Navy I was making 57,000. Unfortunately that wasnt very much money in the particular area I was living.

If you want more out of life than a crummy 1-bedroom apartment you should consider a degree. Work experience or not, it makes you slightly more valuable and employable than someone without it. I intend to have my degree about 3 years from now. I will then have both experience and education which will (hopefully) make me very valuable to the traditional workforce.

Of course, all this is moot if you would rather not be a wage-slave.

 

[RbSX]

I would argue that Post Secondary is not so much about what your learning, rather it teaches you a method of learning, how to think.

The days of getting a job that won't physically kill you without a degree are pretty much kaputnik.

 

[IronWing]

Unless there is a family owned business waiting for her (and it sounds like there isn't), your daughter will have a much harder lot in life w/o a HS diploma than with one. Sexism in hiring, pay, and in expectations is real. A young woman trying to make it in the world w/o a HS diploma will suffer. Tech school or community college would also improve her standing considerably.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: IamDavid
I'm 30. Everyone claims a "degree" is required but I guarantee any company in my field would pay me allot more than most because of my work ethic and knowledge.
I work for one of the largest company's in the US/world. Agriculture based. I'm in middle management now and see no problems advancing if I choose. And I will be completely retired at 55.

And to the ones pointing out my poor spelling/grammar. Thanks. Maybe I'll hire u someday as my secretary.

Well, on the opposite end, my company will not hire anyone (outside of menial positions) without a bachelor's degree.

There's a guy at my company that only has a highschool degree and does ok but he worked his way up from pretty menial stuff over 30 years. He got paid dirt for a long time and now does ok. Of course, if he started with a bachelor's degree he would have gotten to where he is now about 20 years sooner.

 

[CrazyLazy]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
One of the biggest reasons that employers value a college degree is because it shows that the applicant is willing to work through situations that may be unpleasant for them. A degree indicates that the applicant isn't as likely to jump ship the instant something happens that they don't like.

ZV

But is it really worth wasting 4 years of college doing something you dislike just so you can prove how hardcore you are you future employers? My advice for your daughter would be to finish high school no matter what and take a year off to live in the real world by herself. She will either become a millionaire overnight from her god given intellegiance or realize in comparison the real world is much much harder than college.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
I know the statics and I believe they don't mean @#%$. People who are going to succeed in life will, those who aren't gonna do nothing won't. I completely agree with you on hard work being only part of success. The relationships you build is the other key. Luck has nothing to do with it. I was just as successful in my last career path until I decided I no longer wanted to continue it. I seen no long term personal satisfaction from it.
By successful I mean all my children have large rooms in our large house in a nice part of town. We vacation regularly and I have 0 debt., not even a car payment. Like I said earlier though, I'm kinda scared about it all now. Maybe my poor upbringing was a larger driving force behind my success then anything else. I never want my kids to go hungry or not have anything. Maybe it would be good for them though... That's an entire other thread I guess.

95 percent of population DON'T like to goto school, but we put up with it because we realize it is likely (though not guaranteed) to help us succeed later in life.

Just because you do relatively well for your education level, does not mean your kids will. This is a whole new generation, manual labor is in the decline as manufacturing job dwindles. More and more desk jobs will require a degree, that is just an undisputed fact.

Part of being educated is being open enough to accept new concepts and ideas. DO NOT be so stubborn on your ideologies that your kids will ultimately end up paying for it. The statistics for income vs. education level is a FACT. These statistics does not guarantee anything, but it does show that you have a higher chance of being financially successful if you are more educated, it shall not be disputed by your stubbornness. You can name all the successful people you want without an education, such as Bill Gates. But at the end of the day, they are all edge cases in grand scheme of things. For every college dropout like Bill, there are 1000 working retail for the rest of their life.

You have to understand, it is not necessarily the exact subjects you learn in school that will land you a fat check. The most useful thing I got out of school was not about any one particular subject matter, rather, school taught me the ability to learn, investigate and be open minded. It also provides you a social network where it may help you establish your career. It also provides a piece of paper that most employers prefer to see. Even though that piece of paper does not guarantee the quality of workmanship, you will not have many chances to be given an opportunity to even showcase your workmanship if you don't have it.

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
my kids are going to college; it's not an option

Why? What's wrong with trade schools?

 

[Mo0o]

Dropping out of school basically closes a lot of doors for their future. What if your child realized they really want to pursue medicine or engineering or banking. You need degrees for that. Your job as a parent is to prevent kids from making impulsive decisions that might seem like a great idea at the time but they might live to regret.

You're basically imposing a glass ceiling on your childrens life by supporting their decision to drop out. They can hussle all they want but they will never have an occupation that requires an education, even if they realize that's what they really want to pursue. At least have them finish out high school. Having a 3 year workforce advantage is nothing compared to having at least a high school diploma to keep your options open. I dont understand why people would ever willingly close those doors when they hvae no idea what they want to do in life.

Seems ridiculous that people are always convinced they will be the exception, that they'll be the success story that people make movies about when in reality all statistics point to failure.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
my kids are going to college; it's not an option

Why? What's wrong with trade schools?

I don't care what my kids do as far as education; as long as they are either an engineer (PhD), MD, or attorney.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
my kids are going to college; it's not an option

Why? What's wrong with trade schools?

I don't care what my kids do as far as education; as long as they are either an engineer (PhD), MD, or attorney.

I'd be ok with I-banker or consultant, but clearly I have lower expectations of my children than you for yours

 

[imported_Imp]

The absolute minimum is highschool. It leaves a lot of options open, including more school. If your kids don't want to go to college, let them learn about the job market. If they don't get lucky like you, at least they don't have to work at McDonalds while doing their GED. Tell them to google "I wish I finished highschool". I've seen more than enough stories of dropouts who manage inlife, but when they want more, they don't have the paper work. Als, don't know what grade your kids are in, but here, you need at least 2 years of highschool just to join the army.