Impeachment Time

impeachbush

Banned
Feb 22, 2005
185
0
0
This is an absolute disgrace! Our President betrayed the country.
I wish I could write an unbiased readers digest version of this, but I can't. I'm leaving it untouched.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

The Sunday Times - Britain
May 01, 2005

The secret Downing Street memo
SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY

DAVID MANNING
From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 /02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:

(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).

(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.

The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:

(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.

(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.

(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.

The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.

John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.

The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:

(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.

(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.

(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.

(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.

He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.

(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.

(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.

(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)

MATTHEW RYCROFT

(Rycroft was a Downing Street foreign policy aide)

Please Include Your Own Input with Links and Articles.
 

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2004
3,750
0
0
I want to go to war with Sudan, they're being oppressed. Anyone who disagree's with me is unpatriotic and stupid.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: impeachbush
Originally posted by: yllus
Yawn.
If you didn't read it, please don't comment.
If you don't want people commenting on whatever they want, start your own forum. :)

As I was saying:

Yawn.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
I made a post in the thread concerning the end of our great empire.

Quote:
"As far as most people seeing it: I think the real problem is everybody sees it, but few want to ackowledge it consiously.
The power of denial is wonderful. It absolves responsibility and allows us to get on."

Half the country voted for this guy. Are we really able to admit our mistakes so easily? Wouldnt it be better to suck it up for a few years and then write books about him being the greatest US leader?
That would make us feel better. And eventually (when I am of retirement age) we may be brainwashed well enough to forget that our time was all fudged up.
Just like how all the baby-boomer republicans are acting right now.

"The greatest generation" ???!???
WTF ever.
Thats the generation that had everything handed to them by the WWII generation and then screwed it all up. And wants to blame US (gen X) for all the things they're unhappy about.
 

misle

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
3,371
0
76
Originally posted by: impeachbush
Originally posted by: Tom
what part of that did you write ?

This is the actual untouched memo. I didn't write anything other than the first couple comments at the top.

Is this memo like the Bush National Guard papers?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
If you wish to stay in denial, DONT READ THIS!

You're the only one in denial, thinking that there's a snowballs chance in hell that Bush would be impeached. Scratch that, more than denial, you're in loony toons territory there. As a Libertarian I don't care for Republicans any more than you do (and even less in some regards), but you need to relax and wait out the next three years rather than giving yourself an ulcer with fantasies about impeachment, it ain't going to happen with Republicans in charge of Congress.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: glenn1
You're the only one in denial, thinking that there's a snowballs chance in hell that Bush would be impeached.
IF someone manages to pin the outing of undercover CIA agent, Valerie Plame on high Whitehouse sources, I don't think impeachement for treason is out of the question.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
This memo is as close to a smoking gun we've seen so far in the lies and deception wreaked by this administration in its hellbent vision to invade Iraq. This memo was leaked a few days ago and the MSM has been absolutely quiet on it. Why's that?

$70 million was spent investigating whether Clinton dabbled with an intern but only about 20% of that on investigating the worst terror attack in our nation's history. Now we have proof that this administration orchestrated intelligence to fit its purpose and there's barely a blip on the radar?

This is high crimes, people. Akin to racketeering but on a global scale involving hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

Seymour Hersh, Paul O'Neill and Bob Woodward have been right all along.
 

impeachbush

Banned
Feb 22, 2005
185
0
0
The point is that this memo alone is enough to not only impeach, but also convict. Republicans should be just as angry at this because they were told the same lies! This isn't (or at least shouldn't) be a partisan issue. We all got screwed!
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
And this new article from Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/st...7&rnd=1115325831843&has-player=unknown
In fact, it may already be too late to prevent Iraq from exploding. Iraq's new government is stuck in a fatal Catch-22: To have any credibility among Iraqis it must break with the U.S. and oppose the occupation, but it couldn't last a week without the protection of American troops. The Bush administration is also stuck. Its failure to stabilize Iraq, and the continuing casualties there, have led to a steady slide in the president's popularity: Polls show that a majority of Americans no longer think that the war in Iraq was worth fighting in the first place. Yet withdrawing from Iraq would only lead to more chaos, and the rest of the world has exhibited little interest in cleaning up America's mess. Of the two dozen or so countries that sent troops to Iraq, fewer and fewer remain: Spain, Portugal, Hungary and New Zealand have already quit, and the Netherlands, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Italy have announced they are getting out. Even if the United Nations agreed to step in, there is little or no chance that the administration will internationalize control over Iraq. In the face of a full-scale civil war in Iraq, says a source close to the U.S. military, Bush intends to go it alone.

"Our policy is to make Iraq a colony," he says. "We won't let go."
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

You said the two magic words, "if" and "should." Again, what Bush deserves and what he'll get are two entirely seperate propositions. IMHO it's sheer fantasy to think that an impeachment could be successfully launched against the President, especially after the particularly stupid effort against Clinton a few years ago. Americans were so sick of that disaster that the Democrats would probably be better off to let Bush serve out his term rather than subject the voters to that again.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Where is a link to this incriminating story on one of our major news outlets? Like CNN, ABC, FOX, etc.?
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Tom
what part of that did you write ?

Yeah no kidding. This thing is so poorly written how is anyone supposed to take it seriously (unless they have an agenda)?

Does anyone here believe, sincerely, that if there were this kind of CONSPIRACY going on that they would put it in fvcking WRITING?!

What a nitwit!

Jason
 

impeachbush

Banned
Feb 22, 2005
185
0
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

You said the two magic words, "if" and "should." Again, what Bush deserves and what he'll get are two entirely seperate propositions. IMHO it's sheer fantasy to think that an impeachment could be successfully launched against the President, especially after the particularly stupid effort against Clinton a few years ago. Americans were so sick of that disaster that the Democrats would probably be better off to let Bush serve out his term rather than subject the voters to that again.

I think what we all need to realize is that an investigation and impeachment of President Bush will set up a line of dominos. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and anyone else on down the line will be taken out. This is like a cancer, and now that the proof is there ALL Americans need to stand up and give Washington some chemotherapy. These guys have ruined the Republican party and used them to propagate this fake war. Republicans should be utterly PISSED right now! These people in charge are not republicans!
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
This memo is as close to a smoking gun we've seen so far in the lies and deception wreaked by this administration in its hellbent vision to invade Iraq. This memo was leaked a few days ago and the MSM has been absolutely quiet on it. Why's that?

$70 million was spent investigating whether Clinton dabbled with an intern but only about 20% of that on investigating the worst terror attack in our nation's history. Now we have proof that this administration orchestrated intelligence to fit its purpose and there's barely a blip on the radar?

This is high crimes, people. Akin to racketeering but on a global scale involving hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

Seymour Hersh, Paul O'Neill and Bob Woodward have been right all along.

Yeah, because we all know that CONSPIRATORS have such a long history of THOROUGHLY DOCUMENTING the CONSPIRACIES they plan to commit, right?

Moron.

Jason
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: impeachbush
This is an absolute disgrace! Our President betrayed the country.
I wish I could write an unbiased readers digest version of this, but I can't. I'm leaving it untouched.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

The Sunday Times - Britain
May 01, 2005

The secret Downing Street memo
SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY

DAVID MANNING
From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 /02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:

(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).

(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.

The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:

(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.

(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.

(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.

The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.

John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.

The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:

(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.

(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.

(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.

(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.

He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.

(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.

(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.

(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)

MATTHEW RYCROFT

(Rycroft was a Downing Street foreign policy aide)
Heh heh. Didn't work. Blair won.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Where is a link to this incriminating story on one of our major news outlets? Like CNN, ABC, FOX, etc.?
Exactly. Why isn't the "liberal media" pouncing on this? Perhaps because the American MSM is NOT liberal...not anymore. ABC is owned by Disney. ABC a few months ago refused to air an ad from the Universal Church of Christ that included a line that Jesus was not exclusionary. ABC's reasoning was that they don't air religious ads. Then explain why ABC just aired an ad from the bigoted and hate-filled Focus on the Family whose mission is to spread the gospel of Christ (in their own distorted fashion)?

CNN has been moving more to the right for a couple of years in an attempt to gain back ratings lost to FOX. Also, CNN is partly owned by the royal Saudi family and Ted Turner has no control over anything there.

FOX? HA! 'nuff said.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: conjur
This memo is as close to a smoking gun we've seen so far in the lies and deception wreaked by this administration in its hellbent vision to invade Iraq. This memo was leaked a few days ago and the MSM has been absolutely quiet on it. Why's that?

$70 million was spent investigating whether Clinton dabbled with an intern but only about 20% of that on investigating the worst terror attack in our nation's history. Now we have proof that this administration orchestrated intelligence to fit its purpose and there's barely a blip on the radar?

This is high crimes, people. Akin to racketeering but on a global scale involving hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.
Seymour Hersh, Paul O'Neill and Bob Woodward have been right all along.
Yeah, because we all know that CONSPIRATORS have such a long history of THOROUGHLY DOCUMENTING the CONSPIRACIES they plan to commit, right?

Moron.

Jason
Because they don't care because they own the freakin' media! Why don't people realize that?!?!
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: impeachbush
Originally posted by: glenn1
If the GOP-led Congress doesn't start investigations that should lead to impeachments, none of them deserve to be called Americans.

You said the two magic words, "if" and "should." Again, what Bush deserves and what he'll get are two entirely seperate propositions. IMHO it's sheer fantasy to think that an impeachment could be successfully launched against the President, especially after the particularly stupid effort against Clinton a few years ago. Americans were so sick of that disaster that the Democrats would probably be better off to let Bush serve out his term rather than subject the voters to that again.

I think what we all need to realize is that an investigation and impeachment of President Bush will set up a line of dominos. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and anyone else on down the line will be taken out. This is like a cancer, and now that the proof is there ALL Americans need to stand up and give Washington some chemotherapy. These guys have ruined the Republican party and used them to propagate this fake war. Republicans should be utterly PISSED right now! These people in charge are not republicans!

And what will we get next, written, documented proof that aliens have been landing in Nevada for 50 years, conspiring with the secret society of Casino Owners to drain the life and cash out of all Americans with their mega-casino technology? Good cripes, people, do you have a SHRED of intellect to you? Who the hell would so thoroughly DOCUMENT their CONSPIRACY plans?!

What's next, a HellMouth under Cincinnati, with legions of Uber-Vampires preparing to assault the city unless the Slayer appears to stop them?

Jason
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Where is a link to this incriminating story on one of our major news outlets? Like CNN, ABC, FOX, etc.?
Exactly. Why isn't the "liberal media" pouncing on this? Perhaps because the American MSM is NOT liberal...not anymore. ABC is owned by Disney. ABC a few months ago refused to air an ad from the Universal Church of Christ that included a line that Jesus was not exclusionary. ABC's reasoning was that they don't air religious ads. Then explain why ABC just aired an ad from the bigoted and hate-filled Focus on the Family whose mission is to spread the gospel of Christ (in their own distorted fashion)?

CNN has been moving more to the right for a couple of years in an attempt to gain back ratings lost to FOX. Also, CNN is partly owned by the royal Saudi family and Ted Turner has no control over anything there.

FOX? HA! 'nuff said.

Nah, you know as well as I do that they don't air this because they can't air it. Not after the Rather incident. If this document is truly authentic we will see it everywhere soon enough. And if it's not authentic you won't see it anywhere that matters as far as the general populace is concerned.