Impeach Gonzales?

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
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I thought this Op-Ed made a pretty compelling case... the Dems will never do it, though. the AG is providing too much ammo for them; had GWB asked him to resign when the scandal first broke, this wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

He?s Impeachable, You Know

By FRANK BOWMAN
Published: May 3, 2007

Columbia, Mo.

IF Alberto Gonzales will not resign, Congress should impeach him. Article II of the Constitution grants Congress the power to impeach ?the president, the vice president and all civil officers of the United States.? The phrase ?civil officers? includes the members of the cabinet (one of whom, Secretary of War William Belknap, was impeached in 1876).

Impeachment is in bad odor in these post-Clinton days. It needn?t be. Though provoked by individual misconduct, the power to impeach is at bottom a tool granted Congress to defend the constitutional order. Mr. Gonzales?s behavior in the United States attorney affair is of a piece with his role as facilitator of this administration?s claims of unreviewable executive power.

A cabinet officer, like a judge or a president, may be impeached only for commission of ?high crimes and misdemeanors.? But as the Nixon and Clinton impeachment debates reminded us, that constitutional phrase embraces not only indictable crimes but ?conduct ... grossly incompatible with the office held and subversive of that office and of our constitutional system of government.?

United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

That the president has the constitutional power to do these things does not mean he has the right to do them without explanation. Congress has the right to demand explanations for the president?s managerial choices, both to exercise its own oversight function and to inform the voters its members represent.

The right of Congress to demand explanations imposes on the president, and on inferior executive officers who speak for him, the obligation to be truthful. An attorney general called before Congress to discuss the workings of the Justice Department can claim the protection of ?executive privilege? and, if challenged, can defend the (doubtful) legitimacy of such a claim in the courts. But having elected to testify, he has no right to lie, either by affirmatively misrepresenting facts or by falsely claiming not to remember events. Lying to Congress is a felony ? actually three felonies: perjury, false statements and obstruction of justice.

A false claim not to remember is just as much a lie as a conscious misrepresentation of a fact one remembers well. Instances of phony forgetfulness seem to abound throughout Mr. Gonzales?s testimony, but his claim to have no memory of the November Justice department meeting at which he authorized the attorney firings left even Republican stalwarts like Jeff Sessions of Alabama gaping in incredulity. The truth is almost surely that Mr. Gonzales?s forgetfulness is feigned ? a calculated ploy to block legitimate Congressional inquiry into questionable decisions made by the Department of Justice, White House officials and, quite possibly, the president himself.

Even if perjury were not a felony, lying to Congress has always been understood to be an impeachable offense. As James Iredell, later a Supreme Court justice, said in 1788 during the debate over the impeachment clause, ?The president must certainly be punishable for giving false information to the Senate.? The same is true of the president?s appointees.

The president may yet yield and send Mr. Gonzales packing. If not, Democrats may decide that to impeach Alberto Gonzales would be politically unwise. But before dismissing the possibility of impeachment, Congress should recognize that the issue here goes deeper than the misbehavior of one man. The real question is whether Republicans and Democrats are prepared to defend the constitutional authority of Congress against the implicit claim of an administration that it can do what it pleases and, when called to account, send an attorney general of the United States to Capitol Hill to commit amnesia on its behalf.

Frank Bowman is a law professor at the University of Missouri-Columbia.

from: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/opinion/03bowman.html
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
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sure they can impeach him, however its very dangerous to our society if we decide what a person can "honestly" forget and what they cannot.

A false claim not to remember is just as much a lie as a conscious misrepresentation of a fact one remembers well. Instances of phony forgetfulness seem to abound throughout Mr. Gonzales?s testimony

Only if you can prove they remember it well. Thats what I don't like about editorials, you get writers who like to imply something and then repeat often so that the reader starts to believe that.

I don't know what Gonzales knows or don't and I won't presume to know. However, forgetting is not breaking the law and we had enough of that ****** during the Clinton years and it was tiring to hear Congress bitch then.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,765
10,074
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Originally posted by: Shivetya
sure they can impeach him, however its very dangerous to our society if we decide what a person can "honestly" forget and what they cannot.

That is why we jail people, why should Gonzales not be behind bars for failing to remember every single thing ever done? Just ask Scooter Libby.
 

Mean MrMustard

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2001
3,144
10
81
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?
 

Arcex

Senior member
Mar 23, 2005
722
0
0
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?

QFT. He's either dirty or incompetent, as so many high government officials are these days. Either way, give him the boot.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Meanwhile back at the ranch---Alberto has just received two fresh subpoenas from congress---the Justice department is opening an investigation of Monica Goodling regarding criminal
wrong doing---and making some noises at congress and questioning congress's right to issue a immunity from Prosecution deal to Goodling.

If GWB and Gonzales think they have put the scandal behind them---they can forget it.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,755
11,375
136
Originally posted by: Arcex
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?

QFT. He's either dirty or incompetent, as so many high government officials are these days. Either way, give him the boot.

Exactly.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,278
14,699
146
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?

That went down the crapper in Jan. 2001...
(You're doin a heck of a job Brownie!)

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
The same should apply to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?

/thread.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Arcex
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?

QFT. He's either dirty or incompetent, as so many high government officials are these days. Either way, give him the boot.

Exactly.

I feel the same way.. .His position has demanded throughout life that he have an outstanding memory ..

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Shivetya
sure they can impeach him, however its very dangerous to our society if we decide what a person can "honestly" forget and what they cannot.

That is why we jail people, why should Gonzales not be behind bars for failing to remember every single thing ever done? Just ask Scooter Libby.

For the record, Scooter Libby (described by close friends and colleagues as having an incredible mastery of detail) not only 'forgot' events but 'recalled' events that couldn't possibly have happened. Curiously, everything he 'forgot' and everything he 'recalled' obscured reality.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Republicans opened up a can of worms by trying to impeach Clinton. Now every public official is going to be faced with impeachment from their political opponents.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Republicans opened up a can of worms by trying to impeach Clinton. Now every public official is going to be faced with impeachment from their political opponents.

especially when it is warranted as is the case with Alberto.
 

4X4er

Junior Member
Nov 29, 2006
23
0
0
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Either Gonzales is lying or he honestly forgot.

If he lying, he needs to be impeached. The public should demand it.

If he "doesn't remember", he's grossly incompetent and should be removed from office.

Either way the public should demand his removal.

Whatever happened to accountability?
:thumbsup:

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

Well, the above are in the author's opinion all legimate reasons for the President to fire AGs.

Anybody what to tell me which AG's firing didn't fall into one of the above categories?

Fern
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: Fern
United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

Well, the above are in the author's opinion all legimate reasons for the President to fire AGs.

Anybody what to tell me which AG's firing didn't fall into one of the above categories?

Fern

in regards to this thread, I think the issue is that AG lied to congress (or is totally incompetent and/or suffering from Alzheimer's, take your pick)
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
http://www.thedailybackground.com/2007/...t-his-involvement-in-prosecutor-purge/


Attorney General Alberto Gonzales approved plans to fire several U.S. attorneys in a November meeting, according to documents released Friday that contradict earlier claims that he was not closely involved in the dismissals.

The Nov. 27 meeting, in which the attorney general and at least five top Justice Department officials participated, focused on a five-step plan for carrying out the firings of the prosecutors, Justice Department officials said late Friday.
There, Gonzales signed off on the plan, which was crafted by his chief of staff, Kyle Sampson. Sampson resigned last week amid a political firestorm surrounding the firings


knew my chief of staff was involved in the process of determining who were the weak performers ? where were the districts around the country where we could do better for the people in that district, and that?s what I knew?. But that is in essence what I knew about the process; was not involved in seeing any memos, was not involved in any discussions about what was going on. That?s basically what I knew as the attorney general.?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: Fern
United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

Well, the above are in the author's opinion all legimate reasons for the President to fire AGs.

Anybody what to tell me which AG's firing didn't fall into one of the above categories?

Fern

in regards to this thread, I think the issue is that AG lied to congress (or is totally incompetent and/or suffering from Alzheimer's, take your pick)

OK,

FWIW, he doesn't strike me as very competent. I think of him as GWB's "science project", another one of his Hispanic affirmative action works. The guy seems genuinely nice & unassuming, which is very good thing and often overlooked. But he's not "the brightest light on the porch".

I don't think the Senate should be too proud of the fact that they confirmed him either.

For an attorney, this guy is either very sloppy with regard to records, possibly extremely lazy, or extremely "disengaged" or unconcerned with his job. Maybe a health problem (Alzheimer's) as you suggest.

Look, all he had to do was look through his files on the matter. If he's aproving memo's and letters, they should be in a file. If he's attending meetings, they would be in his calender. Notes or minutes of the meeting should have been kept by him or another. It's standard operating proceedure. I'm a tax CPA, we're dealing with nothing but legal documents, record keeping is necessity and legal responsibility. No different for him. In fact because he's fed gov he has more burdensome record keeping requirements, where are the f'ing records? All that is required is he, or some of his staff get 'em and review. I don't see the big deal.

Maybe these people are just "burned out" and no longer care?

Fern



 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Earth to Fern---you are wacked here--I don't think the Senate should be too proud of the fact that they confirmed him either.

GWB&co. and the rubber stamp congress were insufferable proud of themselves when they rammed that bozo through in 05. About the only bozo they failed to ram through was
John Bolton.---and thats only because a few Republicans couldn't stand Bolton either. The democrats were powerless then but voted against the Gonzales confirmation.

The present congress would have never had confirmed Gonzales----and there may be enough Republicans left to prevent his impeachment. But you can bet your sweet bippee that
Gonzales is the rotten fish that gets used to hammer the GOP in the coming weeks and months--and more months if needed. Its always bash a bozo season in Washington DC. A smarter President would have dropped Gonzales long ago.---and no one ever accused GWB of being smart. But other smarter members of the GOP may help GWB see the stupidity of retaining Alberto---and this investigation will soon go criminal---with even the justice department ready to file criminal charges against Goodling.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: Fern
United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

Well, the above are in the author's opinion all legimate reasons for the President to fire AGs.

Anybody what to tell me which AG's firing didn't fall into one of the above categories?

Fern

You obviously didn't read the entire editorial. The author also states (and I agree) that Congress has a right to require the President to explain his actions. Lying to Congress when it asks for explanations is a crime. That's where Gonzales comes in.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Earth to Fern---you are wacked here--I don't think the Senate should be too proud of the fact that they confirmed him either.

GWB&co. and the rubber stamp congress

Yeah, I know that he was confirmed when the Repubs were in the majority. And I was aware of it when I made the post. If you think it was any knid of critism of Dems, the mistake is your.

Whether they were "rubber stamp" or not, they should be embarrased by this.

Fern

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Fern
United States attorneys, though subject to confirmation by the Senate, serve at the pleasure of the president. As a constitutional matter, the president is at perfect liberty to fire all or some of them whenever it suits him. He can fire them for mismanagement, for failing to pursue administration priorities with sufficient vigor, or even because he would prefer to replace an incumbent with a political crony. Indeed, a president could, without exceeding his constitutional authority and (probably) without violating any statute, fire a United States attorney for pursuing officeholders of the president?s party too aggressively or for failing to prosecute officeholders of the other party aggressively enough.

Well, the above are in the author's opinion all legimate reasons for the President to fire AGs.

Anybody what to tell me which AG's firing didn't fall into one of the above categories?

Fern

You obviously didn't read the entire editorial. The author also states (and I agree) that Congress has a right to require the President to explain his actions. Lying to Congress when it asks for explanations is a crime. That's where Gonzales comes in.

Yeah I read it & saw that remark. I don't neccesarily disagree with it. I just didn't address it.

See my above remarks on Alberto.

Fern