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IMF bombshell: Age of America nears end

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America died when the rich took over the people; aka the government. This was around the 80s.

I have to disagree with the 80s statement.

The rich took over the government with the passing of the income tax, and other corporate enrichment laws passed during the first half of the 20th century.

No other law has been so unfair to the poor and middle class as the income tax and the IRS.
 
Seems to me like this has been going on for a lot longer than some opine. Money and power interact fairly fluidly. I think the American position was to tie the Chinese so tightly to use that seperation would lead to both bleeding out. On the other hand, the Chinese seem to have played us far better than the reverse.


It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
-- Henry Ford

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws.
-- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson, and I am not wholly excepting the administration of W.W. (Woodrow Wilson.) The country is going through a repetition of Jackson's fight with the Bank of the United States—only on a far bigger and broader basis.
-– Franklin D Roosevelt
 
The most obvious difference of course is that while Japan has about 1/3 less people than the US, China has about 4 times as many. While GDP/capita matters when discussing quality of life and other such issues, raw GDP is more useful when considering who'll set the global rules or who'll have the largest military.

There's really nothing unprecedented about what China is doing - Japan, South Korea and Taiwan all developed using the same model, so it's hardly a stretch to assume China will do the same (especially since they have actual models to follow).

So while the US is busy with such important questions as Obama's birth certificate or a few million for planned parenthood, China just plows ahead while giving everyone the middle finger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/business/global/15chinawind.html


Remember, empires don't fall quickly - it took the French and British 40-50 years to realize that they'd lost their empires in WWI. If the late 90s/early 00s were the height of America, people won't realize things have changed until at least another generation.

Sums it up well.
 
Why would you say that's true? Yuan aren't really circulated outside of China, and the surplus of foreign money coming in can simply be used in a pass-through method to obtain foreign raw materials and foreign sovereign debt, like US treasuries.

The Yuan isn't coupled to international currency markets the same way as other currencies simply because the Chinese don't let it out of the country the same as others. It's only recently that Yuan has actually been available in limited quantities in currency markets aat all.

The Fed's QE policy doesn't just affect the dollar against the Yuan, but also against all other currencies as well. We can't drive the value of the Yuan up w/o driving the value of the dollar down elsewhere.

Which is not to say that I'm claiming any sort of expertise here, but rather that I think it'd be an enormous mistake to underestimate the acumen of the Chinese in financial affairs. The simple fact that they hold enormous foreign currency reserves puts them in a strong position to do what they want, within reason.

While the Yuan isn't widely traded, it is traded and needs to have an FX rate tied to it to denominate goods between Yuan and Dollar. Instead of letting the market determine what the rate is, China pegs it to a basket, which is heavily weighted to the dollar. As more dollars are used to purchase Chinese goods, a rate between the internal currency for manufacturing and external currency for purchase must be set. As more dollars are accumulated this would push down the value of the dollar and increase the value of the Yuan, even if just inside of China.

However, if this were to happen the benefits of Chinese manufacturing would be greatly reduced until, ultimately, there is an equalibrium reached and the labor arbitrage is eliminated, this is what an efficient market would produce. However, as the dollar declines China must also issue local currency to keep up with the decline at the desired peg.

Keep in mind, China *MUST* accumulate dollar assets, it is a natural byproduct of their trade surplus with the US. Normally this accumulation would balance out with FX rates. However, similar to Japan, they likewise pursued an expansionary policy to enforce a beneficial FX rate. Japan fell into the trap of buying hard US assets, Rockefeller Center, movie studios...etc. However, as they bought up the assets, US cash freed up, capital was invested, asset prices bouyed, and the economy took off. This raised the dollar, driving down asset prices in their own native currency. This exacerbated their issues of poor capital ratios at their banks and companies when combined with their expansionary monetary policies and poor credit decisions.

The same exact thing will happen in China, except they didn't invest in hard assets, just financial ones. They learned that lesson. However, an even worse one is going to happen to them simply because they CANNOT dump treasuries as much as people think they can. Doing so would crush the dollar quickly, but it would also skyrocket the Yuan *AND* drain reserves from their own system. The multiplicative effect would be that Chinese goods suddenly become expensive to US consumers, China itself wouldn't have the reserves to devalue the Yuan without monetary expansion (inflation!) and, as the manufacturing decreases, so would their credit losses. The current expansionary policy would turn hugely deflationary in some cases but hugely inflationary just before that. Their reserves would have to be used to bolster their banks.

The US would, inevitably, have to raise rates which would bolster the dollar but also force jobs back into the US. The carry trade (short dollars, long foreign assets) would be eliminated and the dollar would increase yet more. China would undergo a violent whipsaw, whereby they'd have huge inflation in the runup to deflation, huge deflation as their credit contracts at 7x the rate as the USD FX rate, and then more inflation as the dollar increases.

Ultimately, the end-game would be to force them to float the Yuan, otherwise the ship would never be on even keel, it would just keep going from side to side.

They've trapped themselves into a situation they cannot get out of very easily. The US is holding them there for as long as possible. The US will get punched in the face once the issue snaps back, but China will absolutely get pummeled.

Watch Brazil in that case.
 
I'll take unfounded hysteria for $1,000, Alex.

They are trying to equate the size of China's economy to the US using purchasing power parity numbers. Specifically these PPP numbers are not reliable for internationally traded goods, because those are affected by the exchange rates that PPP is deliberately trying to discount. Ie: The more international China tries to act, the worse their economy looks.

I have no idea why the Euro would replace the dollar as the reserve currency, considering the Eurozone's troubles recently, and any move to make the RMB a reserve currency would require China decoupling their currency from ours, significantly damaging their export capabilities.

Not to mention how China is artificially pumping up their economy right now with all of the ghost cities they are building, etc.

We're doing the same we just haven't gone as far as them yet.
 
The same exact thing will happen in China, except they didn't invest in hard assets, just financial ones. They learned that lesson. However, an even worse one is going to happen to them simply because they CANNOT dump treasuries as much as people think they can. Doing so would crush the dollar quickly, but it would also skyrocket the Yuan *AND* drain reserves from their own system. The multiplicative effect would be that Chinese goods suddenly become expensive to US consumers, China itself wouldn't have the reserves to devalue the Yuan without monetary expansion (inflation!) and, as the manufacturing decreases, so would their credit losses. The current expansionary policy would turn hugely deflationary in some cases but hugely inflationary just before that. Their reserves would have to be used to bolster their banks.

You're assuming our World is only made up of the US and China.

China is already on its way to high-value added manufacturing and is dumping the lower-value stuff to Bangladesh, Pakistan, fellow South-East Asians countries, etc. so the USA would not be buying from China anymore in a couple years.

Further, the USA, with the rise of the BRICs, Indonesia, South Africa, etc. will represent only a small part of China's exports in the future.
 
You're assuming our World is only made up of the US and China.

China is already on its way to high-value added manufacturing and is dumping the lower-value stuff to Bangladesh, Pakistan, fellow South-East Asians countries, etc. so the USA would not be buying from China anymore in a couple years.

Further, the USA, with the rise of the BRICs, Indonesia, South Africa, etc. will represent only a small part of China's exports in the future.

You're missing several factors.

1. Most of those countries also have pegs to the dollar, they are getting hammered too.

2. The entire Asian growth model is built on keeping the dollar as the primary reserve currency and acquiring USTs for the dollars they gain on the current account surplus while the US runs a deficit, (the export model).

3. Most of those countries don't have the benefits of China, namely a iron-fisted government that will strike deals, or they are less stable. How many US companies will want to outsource to Pakistan? Bangladesh? Indonesia? Not nearly as many. The marginal input costs of doing business are much higher, including reputational risk and infrastructure, not to mention political stability and availability of educated people.

Read this to better understand.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/04/bogus-threats-to-us-reserve-currency.html

You're seeing a small scenario of this play out in Europe right now.

The "I" in BRIC is for India, a country going through its own problems right now, including finding properly educated people.
 
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/im...ut-to-end-2011-04-25?link=MW_home_latest_newsbut I'm betting the UN/IMF collude to propose a new world currency of account, with the aim of establishing both an IMF administrative monetary hegemony and an independent tax base for the UN.
This is the most likely outcome in my opinion.

the USA is going to find it mighty hard to service our debt, let alone pay it down or maintain our status as a superpower. Also, even our theoretical ability to monetize our debt will disappear; as our creditors will no longer make loans in dollars, inflation will simply increase our repayments proportionally.
Inflation makes debts smaller so long as those debts are denominated in domestic currency. What you say about third world countries is only true because their debt is denominated in foreign currencies. So when all those US dollars are repatriated, we should see huge inflation which will wreck the economy but existing debt will be a lot easier to pay. Nobody will lend us more money though.
 
This is the most likely outcome in my opinion.

Inflation makes debts smaller so long as those debts are denominated in domestic currency. What you say about third world countries is only true because their debt is denominated in foreign currencies. So when all those US dollars are repatriated, we should see huge inflation which will wreck the economy but existing debt will be a lot easier to pay. Nobody will lend us more money though.

Again, what you're not getting is that China, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan...etc, have NO CHOICE but to lend us more money. Their entire economy is based on exporting to us and them running a current account surplus as a result. The natural outcome of this is that we run a current account deficit. The natural outcome of that is that they accumulate dollars, but also have to issue their own currency in the correct proportion to maintain the FX rate they want.

Numerically speaking, here is how it works.


US Consumer buys $100 worth of goods, Chinese manufactuer sells 800 Yuan worth of goods. Chinese manufacturer (government) gets $100 and turns around and buys $25 worth of US goods (200 Yuan). They are left with $75 USD (600 Yuan). What do they do with this money?

Since there's more dollars than created from the trade, the natural effect would be for the USD to depreciate vs Yuan and the Yuan to raise. This would be what would happen once the Chinese sell the USD into the market to buy other goods with their surplus. However, doing so would further depreciate the USD. The only choice they have is to keep the $75 and invest it in USD assets. If they don't then their goods become unattractive to US consumers (b/c currency appreciates) and they lose the export business.

They can do this in 2 main ways, acquire financial assets (treasuries or other debt) or acquire hard assets. Unfortunately, Japan learned the hard asset lesson, so China buys debt. All other countries that have a trade surplus with the US have the same issue.

The second issue is how to keep the correct proportion of Yuan/USD in place? Since they "import" USD, the FX rate internally must stay the same, otherwise they'll have tons of dollars and fewer Yuan (relatively speaking). Thus, they must print Yuan to keep the correct ratio in place. So, for every USD they acquire they must print 8 Yuan. This is the main reason why Chinese inflation is far higher than US inflation.

So you have two issues here. The world is piggybacking their economies on the US (Because we like to play "fair") and, as a result, the world HAS to acquire USD assets. They wont acquire USD hard assets, otherwise once the US economy takes off from raising asset prices (from the acquisition), they'll get screwed. So they HAVE to keep buying debt.

If they don't, then their entire economies fall apart. We can, effectively, keep this up in perpetuity as long as they want to keep their economies afloat. We can rack up $200TR in debt and pay interest with debt and it still won't matter. They *HAVE* to keep it up, otherwise they crash.

People say the US is manipulating the world's financial markets. However, it is the world that is manipulating the US' economy and debt volume. The Fed is fighting back against that.

Now, imagine if we had no central bank. Gold backed currency couldn't deal with people manipulating the currency outside of a "free market". Our economy would be toast.

The "free market" only works as long as *EVERY* country has a free market and nobody games the system. Unfortunately, this isn't Star Trek or utopia.
 
This is the most likely outcome in my opinion.

Inflation makes debts smaller so long as those debts are denominated in domestic currency. What you say about third world countries is only true because their debt is denominated in foreign currencies. So when all those US dollars are repatriated, we should see huge inflation which will wreck the economy but existing debt will be a lot easier to pay. Nobody will lend us more money though.
My point was what would happen if/when the dollar was no longer acceptable for our bonds. If we can only sell debt in Fails or Bribes or whatever UN/IMF currency they come up with, or in Euros or other non-US dollar currency, then our repayment would be face value plus nominal interest plus an additional inflation adjustment. One of the things that has kept our debt servicing manageable is that we are borrowing in our own currency; as you say, nations who must borrow in non-domestic currencies do not have that luxury.

Of course, it's also possible that the dollar could be dethroned as the world's reserve currency without affecting our ability to borrow some or even (theoretically) all of our new debt in dollars, depending on our perceived stability relative to the world.
 
Why can't the Chinese just buy other stuff from other countries, and/or internal projects, with their $75? What makes them have to buy US debt?

Chuck

They could, if the other countries would accept the $75 and some do. However, then there's still $75 outstanding. The chances that the 2nd country would just exchange the $75 are too great, if they did it would depress the USD, defeating the purpose.
 
Well, why wouldn't they accept the $75 worth of US money (either in Yuan or USD)? I don't know what you mean by 'still $75 outstanding'. In your example they turned around and bought $25 worth of US goods/services with their $100, leaving them $75. If they take that $75 and use it to build/buy infrastructure in Africa and the rest of the sh1hole locales of the world (including their own), it's coming out of that $75. If they buy nice German stuff with some of that $75, it's still coming out of their $75. At some point, they've exhausted that $75.

Except, unlike us, they could actually be doing important and necessary stuff (in relation to them) with their $75, whereas we get a green plastic bucket at Wal-mart because the person who's got $20k in credit card debt liked the green color over their perfectly functional cheap red plastic bucket.

I'm not understading how the Chinese are losing here....

Chuck
 
Well, why wouldn't they accept the $75 worth of US money (either in Yuan or USD)? I don't know what you mean by 'still $75 outstanding'. In your example they turned around and bought $25 worth of US goods/services with their $100, leaving them $75. If they take that $75 and use it to build/buy infrastructure in Africa and the rest of the sh1hole locales of the world (including their own), it's coming out of that $75. If they buy nice German stuff with some of that $75, it's still coming out of their $75. At some point, they've exhausted that $75.

Except, unlike us, they could actually be doing important and necessary stuff (in relation to them) with their $75, whereas we get a green plastic bucket at Wal-mart because the person who's got $20k in credit card debt liked the green color over their perfectly functional cheap red plastic bucket.

I'm not understading how the Chinese are losing here....

Chuck

What you're not getting is that what is the 2nd person going to do with the $75? The second they exchange it on the open market for Euros or whatever currency is the second the USD goes into the market further dislocating the exchange rates, resulting in China having to issue more currency in the home market to keep the peg in place.

They have to keep the USD propped up, otherwise they'll have to issuer 8x more currency to keep the peg in place, accelerating inflation domestically. By the Fed using QE, they are doing exactly what China won't do.
 
What you're not getting is that what is the 2nd person going to do with the $75? The second they exchange it on the open market for Euros or whatever currency is the second the USD goes into the market further dislocating the exchange rates, resulting in China having to issue more currency in the home market to keep the peg in place.

They have to keep the USD propped up, otherwise they'll have to issuer 8x more currency to keep the peg in place, accelerating inflation domestically. By the Fed using QE, they are doing exactly what China won't do.

so why isn't China doing that? Why must the fed do it? Is it a game of chicken or corporate influence?
 
Can't the 2nd person just do the same thing?

They could but ultimately the amount of USD in real-time circulation would increase and, eventually, not everybody is going to want to hold or accept the USD for trade. You have to take some out of circulation to keep a peg, which is what they are doing by buying USD assets.
 
so why isn't China doing that? Why must the fed do it? Is it a game of chicken or corporate influence?

China's not going to voluntarily increase their money supply to enforce a peg, it causes inflation in their home currency.

It's absolutely a game of chicken. The problem is, China can't flinch. We can always cut budgetary issues but they cannot cut their economy without losing huge amounts of goodwill capital from their own people.

I've been telling you guys for a long time, China is truly trapped by a trap of their own design. This whole thing could have been avoided had they let their currency appreciate years ago. The remainder of the Asian economies will feel the same bite.
 
Ok, so lets say there's a mix of pay in US and inflate their own supply. China isn't the US, they're going to have no qualms deciding on a policy that benefits them the most, and whatever the RoTW thinks, F'em (as they're doing now as you point out).

What keeps them from just saying, after they've got too many Yuan floating around, "We're redo'ing our currency x way/in y manner." And then the RoTW world says, "Hey, that's F'd up, you can't do that, it isn't right/proper!" To which Communist China says, "What are you going to do about it?" To which sellout American business and greedy American consumer says, "Buy the yellow cheap plastic bucket!"

What just prevents China from doing that when they eventually get tired of dealing with how they'll end up?

Chuck
 
China's not going to voluntarily increase their money supply to enforce a peg, it causes inflation in their home currency.

It's absolutely a game of chicken. The problem is, China can't flinch. We can always cut budgetary issues but they cannot cut their economy without losing huge amounts of goodwill capital from their own people.

I've been telling you guys for a long time, China is truly trapped by a trap of their own design. This whole thing could have been avoided had they let their currency appreciate years ago. The remainder of the Asian economies will feel the same bite.

A Chinese Finger TRAP!

It was good to read your perspective and insight into the matter. Appreciate it.
 
What you're not getting is that what is the 2nd person going to do with the $75? The second they exchange it on the open market for Euros or whatever currency is the second the USD goes into the market further dislocating the exchange rates, resulting in China having to issue more currency in the home market to keep the peg in place.

They have to keep the USD propped up, otherwise they'll have to issuer 8x more currency to keep the peg in place, accelerating inflation domestically. By the Fed using QE, they are doing exactly what China won't do.

I don't think China has to issue more domestic currency when they use dollars to buy raw materials, at all, which is largely what they're doing. Yeh, sure, the dollars going out into the market affect the second party and floating exchange rates, but not necessarily the internal economics of China. If the value of the Yuan and the dollar go down together, it just makes chinese goods even more attractive in other parts of the world.

Right now, they're locked into the US as a trading partner, but that's increasingly non-exclusive. Domestic demand is also rising quickly in China. It's the same story as US goods in the world market 100 years ago, when we overtook the established industrial powers of Europe by exploiting cheap labor and cheap abundant resources. It's not like we fell apart as domestic demand grew, and neither likely will China.

The ability to spend dollars and hoard other currencies of their choice puts them in a very strong position over time frames longer than tomorrow.

You're basically taking the FRB's line as gospel, that the current imbalance is China's fault, when it also falls on the FRB, as well. While the dollar peg can't be controlled directly, domestic interest rates can be, and yet haven't been. Oh, no- can't raise rates, because that would slow "growth", which just goes to the top of the domestic economic foodchain, anyway, while debt settles more towards the bottom. Debt is the illusion propping up Reaganomics, and has been all along.
 
I don't think China has to issue more domestic currency when they use dollars to buy raw materials, at all, which is largely what they're doing. Yeh, sure, the dollars going out into the market affect the second party and floating exchange rates, but not necessarily the internal economics of China. If the value of the Yuan and the dollar go down together, it just makes chinese goods even more attractive in other parts of the world.

Right now, they're locked into the US as a trading partner, but that's increasingly non-exclusive. Domestic demand is also rising quickly in China. It's the same story as US goods in the world market 100 years ago, when we overtook the established industrial powers of Europe by exploiting cheap labor and cheap abundant resources. It's not like we fell apart as domestic demand grew, and neither likely will China.

The ability to spend dollars and hoard other currencies of their choice puts them in a very strong position over time frames longer than tomorrow.

You're basically taking the FRB's line as gospel, that the current imbalance is China's fault, when it also falls on the FRB, as well. While the dollar peg can't be controlled directly, domestic interest rates can be, and yet haven't been. Oh, no- can't raise rates, because that would slow "growth", which just goes to the top of the domestic economic foodchain, anyway, while debt settles more towards the bottom. Debt is the illusion propping up Reaganomics, and has been all along.


This is the problem, you don't *THINK* they do, but they absolutely have to. It is an economic fact that in order to keep their currency valued low against a devaluing currency they have to devalue their currency. This means that the monetary base has to expand. You may not "think" that it works like that but it does.

The mechanics absolutely affect China internally, dollars are flooding into the country from the trade imbalance and they aren't leaving. As more dollars ("hot money") flow in they have to be valued at something, it's simple supply and demand. Since the people there don't make dollars and can't spend dollars, they have to be paid in something and the producers have to translate that into dollars somehow. Their input costs can't be paid for in dollars in all cases, they have to be paid for in Yuan.

Again, you "think" but then claim that I am buying the Fed's line, yet you are buying the anti-fed line without actually thinking it through. You aren't "thinking" at all, you're just chewing another cow's cud and regurgitating it everywhere.

The US didn't become dominant because our goods were better, we became dominant because we were the only economy left standing. Our cheap labor wasn't all that cheap, relatively speaking and our currency wasn't manipulated through pegs. At that point it was gold backed. We weren't a huge export economy during the turn of the last century, unlike China.

Nor do we have an aging population, a gender overhang, and an economy based on 70% capital spending that has built entire large cities where nobody lives. Our railroads expanded too far and we suffered for it, but we didn't cover the whole US in them, unlike China now. Relatively speaking, the credit expansion seen in the world has never been seen before in China.

You ignore the implications of such a massive amount of credit expansion. China will stumble and stumble hard. They've grown too far, too fast with too much credit. This is, most likely, the biggest bubble in history.

I wasn't wrong about housing back in 2004/2005 and I don't think I am wrong about this, despite the numerous naysayers. There are many intelligent and knowledgable people coming out about this.
 
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