Imagine that a scientist invents a truth drug...

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Moony, you got two assumptions working at the same time and, the second one renders the the first trivial.

 

[Corn]

Just wear the damn sunglasses.

Thank you for the They Live reference. That was awesome.

 

[Moonbeam]

Jaskalas: Psychopaths are human, but it's not lies that made them that way. Hell Moonbeam it's like you just denied that psychopathy exists. A very strange stance to take.

M: All I said is that psychopaths aren't human, not that they don't exist. I think they are folk born without a capacity to feel empathy or had that capacity destroyed as children. In order to be human, in my book, you have to feel empathy.

J: My point was that some conditioning may be beneficial to people.

M: It's nice to know how to play the piano.

J: Those prone to be a danger to others are potentially rehabilitated through such efforts. Your drug would erase that potential in both them, and in others.

• I'm saying there is a risk involved.

So you deny the risk, and cite yourself as an example.

Anyways I believe there is a risk, and as such - I want to examine the truth of myself before subjecting myself to such truth. I don't know what I'd find, if it would be good or bad. That's my stumbling block, why I cannot agree to it.

• Yes, I'm afraid of what sort of truth I might find.

Because I do not know, and if I did I wouldn't need the drug. That's a catch 22 whereby I'm reduced to answering no to your question. No I wouldn't take it.

Ironically, I just noticed the direct comparison to your question and The Matrix. Where I was always certain I'd take the red pill. Now I'm totally screwed and still uncertain as to my choice. Logically I should say no, but my heart was always to say yes.

M: Because of my experience I have come to believe that wisdom is not knowing anything, that learning is subtractive, that knowledge is what you have absent conditioning. Learning, real learning, to me is unlearning. This can happen in many ways, I suppose, but the best way in my opinion, is finding the truth of what you are feeling. I have learned that our real truth, what we really believe, is hidden in our unconscious feelings. This is why psychotherapy can help us be happier, why knowing oneself is the road to freedom. I believe this, but as you can see, it seems that most are afraid.

I like the matrix because, although the real world was ugly in that film, it's still very lovely in my back yard. But the film raises very important questions about what is reality and what is a program.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moony, you got two assumptions working at the same time and, the second one renders the the first trivial.

I assumed that a drug was invented that would cause a person who took it to know if what they believe is truth by revealing what truth is. I assumed of all of the people who took it, those that were shown the truth were shown the same thing, the real truth. I do not understand what you mean by saying the second renders the first trivial.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes but we are for our thought experiment, assuming that such a thing might exist. The question, I think, is if there were a means to know if what we believe is all lies would we want to see what the real truth is?

All the responses so far, in my opinion, say no.

I'm thinking no as well. If objective truth exists one might worry that they are found wanting and knowing truth as being absolute provides little comfort. There's a song that has a line something like "I spoke to God and he said he'd be my guiding hand but don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to". Who would want to really know there may be no hope or redemption, that all the constructions they internally hold as vtruths could be stripped away leaving them naked. It's Fear itself.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm thinking no as well. If objective truth exists one might worry that they are found wanting and knowing truth as being absolute provides little comfort. There's a song that has a line something like "I spoke to God and he said he'd be my guiding hand but don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to". Who would want to really know there may be no hope or redemption, that all the constructions they internally hold as vtruths could be stripped away leaving them naked. It's Fear itself.

I believe that fear is not an emotion, but the suppression of all feeling. Fear is what one experiences when one won't allow oneself to feel anything. I have watched people go from writhing around in abject terror trying to escape into full on re-experiencing childhood trauma where they are being beaten. I have gone from depression to sadness to rage to grief to remembering and release with laughter and peace. I believe the only thing we have to fear is fear itself and all it is is but the fear of remembering. Don't you think that what you mean by naked is unarmed, to be as a little child open to destruction without any defenses. Isn't that how we killed our love, so that we could never be hurt again? Don't you think that if you want the kingdom of heaven you will not enter it with armor and weapons but except as you be a little child?
In the ocean there are treasures beyond belief but if you seek safety it is on the shore. A Sufi saying.

 

[GasX]

Given some time and a low dose propofol infusion, I could get the truth out of any of you assholes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Given some time and a low dose propofol infusion, I could get the truth out of any of you assholes.

I'm in. I have a whole list of questions to ask. Is there such a thing as objective reality, why are we, and why are we as we are, what is the nature of the universe, how did it come about, v is there a God? An afterlife? If so what is it like? I got more.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm in. I have a whole list of questions to ask. Is there such a thing as objective reality, why are we, and why are we as we are, what is the nature of the universe, how did it come about, v is there a God? An afterlife? If so what is it like? I got more.

If the ground were sand paper GasX would have sore knuckles.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I assumed that a drug was invented that would cause a person who took it to know if what they believe is truth by revealing what truth is. I assumed of all of the people who took it, those that were shown the truth were shown the same thing, the real truth. I do not understand what you mean by saying the second renders the first trivial.

Your second assumption is that Truth with a capital "T" exists. That one assumption contravenes a basic attribute of being human making your first assumption trivial and pointless.

 

[Moonbeam]

Your second assumption is that Truth with a capital "T" exists. That one assumption contravenes a basic attribute of being human making your first assumption trivial and pointless.

My first assumption was that a drug was invented. I made no assumption about what truth or Truth is but only that all those who took the drug agreed to that truth. Without the hypothetical invention of the drug no thought experiment exists because there is no such drug that exists that I know of. That taking the drug produces a hypothetical consensus is dependent on the fact that such a drug would have to exist. Maybe instead of telling me that my argument does this or that. why not just say what you see. Explain what you mean. What basic attitude of being human do you refer to?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Regardless of whether or not the drug supplies it's own truth independant of the rest of the population, your drug would eliminate the basic human "attribute" of free will ie. your drug takers would no longer be human.

 

[GasX]

If the ground were sand paper GasX would have sore knuckles.

How did you know I like to snowboard?

 

[shira]

I strongly suspect you are mostly referring to peoples' views on issues like religion, global warming, race, abortion, economics, charity, immigration... etc

The thing is, though your thought experiment may be interesting to entertain... there are literally no "truths" on any of these issues.

It's all subjective, and based on the sort of society you want to become, or to remain.

Even simplistic "us vs. them" thoughts may have a very necessary role to maintaining certain desirable societal traits... even people believing in falsehoods such as religion may be a very useful delusion for the masses.

Ah, I see you haven't taken the truth drug yet.

 

[Spungo]

It's called LSD.

Alcohol is a bad one too. Closet assholes start to argue and fight with everyone after having a few drinks.

I never trust people who refuse to drink. It feels like they are hiding something and they know alcohol will make the truth come out.

 

[Moonbeam]

Alcohol is a bad one too. Closet assholes start to argue and fight with everyone after having a few drinks.

I never trust people who refuse to drink. It feels like they are hiding something and they know alcohol will make the truth come out.

How did you come to the conclusion he was saying LSD is bad? I thought he was suggesting it as a truth pill.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Stupid thread just continues getting dumber with each passing day.

 

[Spungo]

How did you come to the conclusion he was saying LSD is bad? I thought he was suggesting it as a truth pill.

The truth is bad because people are cunts. It's better when they bottle that up and don't subject the rest of us to their cuntiness.

I wonder if Hitler was big into hallucinogens. Take LSD or something then have this grand vision. Oh, I can actually solve the Jewish problem!

 

[Moonbeam]

The truth is bad because people are cunts. It's better when they bottle that up and don't subject the rest of us to their cuntiness.

I wonder if Hitler was big into hallucinogens. Take LSD or something then have this grand vision. Oh, I can actually solve the Jewish problem!

I can see why you might hold this opinion. But just imagine a truth pill that exposed the fact that God is within you. Would you take that pill?