Imagine that a scientist invents a truth drug...

[Moonbeam]

that when taken completely alters the character of some of the people who take it such that they suddenly claim their lives were lived in a state of delusion but that now they see. Additionally, all those who take the drug all now agree that the truth there eyes were opened to is the same one they all now see. It would be impossible to for me to place any percentage value on the number of folk that would change, to establish for certain ones risk, because that would presuppose I am not a person who would be unaffected by such a drug and know how many others also wouldn't be. How can one know if what one believes isn't actually just conditioning and lies. Correspondingly, while in a real case where such a drug exists, we would have some visual evidence of the results of what this one truth would look like, but in our hypothetical here, we only know that some number of those who take it all agree that what they formerly believed was conditioning and what they see now agrees with what the others who changed see or didn't change see.

Would you take such a drug?

 

[Pray To Jesus]

It's called LSD.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm trying to picture what this looks like.

You describe that one would be free of delusion, conditioning and lies. That does not even sound possible. Unless you are also suggesting that people would be incapable of lying to others. Else - how would they be free of lies?

No magic pharmaceutical is going to make you see through every lie or deceit. Protect you from delusion and conditioning maybe... Even if I just focus on those two aspects, it's difficult to presume what this drug would have to do to achieve that.

I'm wanting to spell out its effects in more detail. To examine the changes. I should not / can not decide on it if we aren't on the same page.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Just wear the damn sunglasses.

 

[Moonbeam]

It's called LSD.

Some see God; some jump out of windows. There is no one consistent truth folk report on.

 

[Geosurface]

I strongly suspect you are mostly referring to peoples' views on issues like religion, global warming, race, abortion, economics, charity, immigration... etc

The thing is, though your thought experiment may be interesting to entertain... there are literally no "truths" on any of these issues.

It's all subjective, and based on the sort of society you want to become, or to remain.

Even simplistic "us vs. them" thoughts may have a very necessary role to maintaining certain desirable societal traits... even people believing in falsehoods such as religion may be a very useful delusion for the masses.

 

[Moonbeam]

Jaskalas;34761838]: I'm trying to picture what this looks like.

You describe that one would be free of delusion, conditioning and lies. That does not even sound possible. Unless you are also suggesting that people would be incapable of lying to others. Else - how would they be free of lies?

M: I believe psychiatry can show that we lie to ourselves. These would be the lies I speak of. An end to an self deception we may not know we engage in.

J: No magic pharmaceutical is going to make you see through every lie or deceit. Protect you from delusion and conditioning maybe... Even if I just focus on those two aspects, it's difficult to presume what this drug would have to do to achieve that.

M: No such drug exists that I know of which is why I posed the question as what if. Suppose there were a drug that wiped your hard drive clean of any ideas thoughts of feelings you had that were brainwashing or propaganda, etc. Would you chance that maybe even your core beliefs are a lies if you could suddenly actually know the real truth instead? If LSD were such a drug, maybe that explains the jumping out of windows, but there is no consistent reports of one reality reported by all who have taken it and survived I am fairly sure.

I'm wanting to spell out its effects in more detail. To examine the changes. I should not / can not decide on it if we aren't on the same page.[/QUOTE]

 

[Moonbeam]

I strongly suspect you are mostly referring to peoples' views on issues like religion, global warming, race, abortion, economics, charity, immigration... etc

The thing is, though your thought experiment may be interesting to entertain... there are literally no "truths" on any of these issues.

It's all subjective, and based on the sort of society you want to become, or to remain.

Even simplistic "us vs. them" thoughts may have a very necessary role to maintaining certain desirable societal traits... even people believing in falsehoods such as religion may be a very useful delusion for the masses.

If there are no truth and all is delusion etc., then that is what this drug would have people say who took it. What may be necessary to society may not be what is truth.

 

[Greenman]

Solipsism. It's whats for dinner.

 

[TallBill]

It's called LSD.

Once I'm retired, that's on my list.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Jesus Moonbeam, go smoke a joint you fucking weirdo. wtf

 

[Farang]

It's called LSD.

that stuff is wild. The best is the last few hours when you're still nuts but coherent enough to wax poetic

 

[Oyeve]

The Matrix.

 

[Moonbeam]

Solipsism. It's whats for dinner.

sol·ip·sism
[sol-ip-siz-uhm] Show IPA

noun
1.
Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.

2.
extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

In short, related in no way at all to my question.

 

[cybrsage]

It is an interesting though, but I am sure most people would not actually want to know the truth if it showed their core beliefs to be a lie. Would I take it? Not sure, for with 100% certainty comes the removal of faith and faith is important. But moreover, I would be worried about side effects, such as being unable to tell a woman "no, you do not look fat in that dress".

 

[OverVolt]

Low dose Oxytocin repeatedly and Low dose LSD/MDMA would actually do the trick. It would be more like a truth cocktail.

Look them up :awe:

I'm pretty sure you could chemically induce trust in the interrogator.

 

[wirednuts]

Some see God; some jump out of windows. There is no one consistent truth folk report on.

um, only those who haven't done it question it....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm reminded of what Pilate said. "What is truth? "

 

[Moonbeam]

cybrsage: It is an interesting though, but I am sure most people would not actually want to know the truth if it showed their core beliefs to be a lie.

M: But one would not know before hand for certain one way or the other.

c: Would I take it? Not sure,

M: You are the only one except maybe Jaskalas who even gets near an answer.

c: for with 100% certainty comes the removal of faith and faith is important.

M: But isn't faith a means to a kind of 100% certainty? If you knew by faith or by a drug, in my theoretical, it would still only be faith.

c: But moreover, I would be worried about side effects, such as being unable to tell a woman "no, you do not look fat in that dress".

M: Truth, I don't think, is the same as truthfulness. It isn't truth to tell a killer where the person he wants to kill resides. One has here a sacred duty to life that comes before factualness.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm reminded of what Pilate said. "What is truth? "

Yes but we are for our thought experiment, assuming that such a thing might exist. The question, I think, is if there were a means to know if what we believe is all lies would we want to see what the real truth is?

All the responses so far, in my opinion, say no.

 

[Jaskalas]

M: I believe psychiatry can show that we lie to ourselves. These would be the lies I speak of. An end to an self deception we may not know we engage in.

Fair enough.

Though I fear lies and self delusions help keep some people in check. So while those harmed by their lies would be made whole, I fear that may not be true for everyone. Imagine a psychopath who is conditioned towards good behavior, beholden to lies which keep him from harming others. This drug would set him towards destructive ends, shedding any delusion of wanting to be a good person.

Is it reasonable to say that this effect would have mixed results?

If we come to understand that, we must move towards examining what effects it could have on ourselves. Do I lie to myself, are they beneficial or detrimental? Maybe I'm in no position to make that judgement. At the very least not off the top of my head. This is a very in-depth question and I find myself at a loss to answer.

Would I take it? I still do not know.

I posit this: If I could honestly and correctly answer your question then I would not need this drug for I would already have had to discover the truth of myself.

 

[Juddog]

It's called DMT.

ftfy

 

[Moonbeam]

Jaskalas: Fair enough.

Though I fear lies and self delusions help keep some people in check. So while those harmed by their lies would be made whole, I fear that may not be true for everyone. Imagine a psychopath who is conditioned towards good behavior, beholden to lies which keep him from harming others. This drug would set him towards destructive ends, shedding any delusion of wanting to be a good person.

Is it reasonable to say that this effect would have mixed results?

M: I do not have your questions for some reason. My own reading is that a psychopath is either genetically not human or was turned into one by believing in lies. In the former case there is no human truth possible for one and in the second he or she would be free of their mental illness.

J: If we come to understand that, we must move towards examining what effects it could have on ourselves. Do I lie to myself, are they beneficial or detrimental? Maybe I'm in no position to make that judgement. At the very least not off the top of my head. This is a very in-depth question and I find myself at a loss to answer.

Would I take it? I still do not know.

I posit this: If I could honestly and correctly answer your question then I would not need this drug for I would already have had to discover the truth of myself.

M: As a youth full of vigor and confidence I set out to discover truth, an endeavor for which I paid with the cost of all my cherished beliefs. Having dies once I personally do particularly fear this kind of psychic death happening over again. I believe that folk say the truth sets you free because it does.

 

[classy]

It's called LSD.

LOL
:thumbsup:

 

[Jaskalas]

M: I do not have your questions for some reason. My own reading is that a psychopath is either genetically not human or was turned into one by believing in lies. In the former case there is no human truth possible for one and in the second he or she would be free of their mental illness.

Psychopaths are human, but it's not lies that made them that way. Hell Moonbeam it's like you just denied that psychopathy exists. A very strange stance to take.

My point was that some conditioning may be beneficial to people. Those prone to be a danger to others are potentially rehabilitated through such efforts. Your drug would erase that potential in both them, and in others.

• I'm saying there is a risk involved.

M: As a youth full of vigor and confidence I set out to discover truth, an endeavor for which I paid with the cost of all my cherished beliefs. Having dies once I personally do particularly fear this kind of psychic death happening over again. I believe that folk say the truth sets you free because it does.

So you deny the risk, and cite yourself as an example.

Anyways I believe there is a risk, and as such - I want to examine the truth of myself before subjecting myself to such truth. I don't know what I'd find, if it would be good or bad. That's my stumbling block, why I cannot agree to it.

• Yes, I'm afraid of what sort of truth I might find.

Because I do not know, and if I did I wouldn't need the drug. That's a catch 22 whereby I'm reduced to answering no to your question. No I wouldn't take it.

Ironically, I just noticed the direct comparison to your question and The Matrix. Where I was always certain I'd take the red pill. Now I'm totally screwed and still uncertain as to my choice. Logically I should say no, but my heart was always to say yes.