Originally posted by: eos
Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.
Shut up.
another reason why American jobs are being shipped overseas.
another reason why American jobs are being shipped overseas.
Please contact your your overseas plumber next time you have a turd floating. Better yet, contact Dartworth....He'll tell ya what you can do with it.
Squisher, at least you still have a job. AA and delphi are under major stress here in Western NY. Thousands of workers taking buyouts and hundreds, if not thousands, of others worrying everyday if they are going to be the next to get chopped.
There are so many people on this forum hell bent on destroying the American middle class. A great example of this is NanoStuff and his mindless excursions into class based eliteism.
There are so many people on this forum hell bent on destroying the American middle class. A great example of this is NanoStuff and his mindless excursions into class based eliteism.
You answered the question yourself.
The reason you're still in business is because of people not being able to send your jobs overseas. That is a natural barrier to the labor pool. Let's say we open the borders; see how long you'll get to keep your jobs with the UNION.
BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,624
- 15,014
- 146
Why not? You want the higher wages and benefits as well as job protection afforded by the unions don't ya? Or are you willing to work for half of what the union workers get, with no benefits? What if you do something that results in disciplinary action? Do you want your union rep to help you with that? In MOST "open shop" jobs, the scab workers get the same pay and benefits as the union members do, AND, the union is required to represent that worker as well...even if they don't pay dues. Sounds like welfare or freeloading to me.
Mo0o
Lifer
- Jul 31, 2001
- 24,227
- 3
- 76
As long as the unions are reasonable with their demands i have no problem with them. and as far as the statement of high school drop out making 70k/90k not being fair, well they are literally working in sht or out in the hot weather so that sounds fair to me, it's not like they're making the same amount as cardiothorathic surgeons or ibankers
Don't forget he is most likely one of the lucky ones that is paid to promote the destruction of the middle class U.S.
Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Besides the desire to experience the downfall of America to a third world country, I see no benefit. There might be a short term benefit of you being able to get cut rate skilled work done. Eventually that is going to undercut middle America and just about eveyone is going to be in a worse position than before, except the immigrant from Mexico.
There are plenty of skilled trademan jobs that simply can't be shipped overseas. This is mostly a good thing. The jobs and money stay within the borders for the primary transaction.
I really can't wrap my head around the hatred for the American middle class (tradesmen). A country that produces nothing, is worth nothing. Why do so many people think this country can stay afloat by being a service based economy? Even the service economy is being eroded by incredibly cheap overseas labor. So what are we left with? Everyone in the country makes considerably less, if they even HAVE a job, and in turn the services we need cost less. That's not a tradeoff I'm willing to live with.
What I really see as the issue here is the absolute blinding jealousy so many people have concerning unions, their workers and the wages they get paid. One person works a desk job, paid a lot of time/money to go to school and has to put their time in to make a superior wage. The same rule applies to the trades in this country. These workers don't simply walk into a skilled trade and start making 65K at 20 years old. They have to put years of time and effort in to achieve the working wage they are paid. If it takes a union to protect that level of living wage then so be it, you should be happy for these people because they are supporting your economy.
On top of that if so many people are outraged at unions and their wages then they would take the time and effort involved to enter that industry and earn the paychecks. The reality I see is that none of these whiners would EVER do that, they fancy themselves too superior ever to stoop to the level of a tradesman.
Originally posted by: eos
Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.
Shut up.
Their time -- in terms of usefulness -- has passed a long time ago. The fact that your dad is part of an organization that artificially inflates wages and benefits, in direct contrast to the fair market value, is definitely NOT a good thing.
Originally posted by: chambersc
Originally posted by: eos
Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.
Their time -- in terms of usefulness -- has passed a long time ago. The fact that your dad is part of an organization that artificially inflates wages and benefits, in direct contrast to the fair market value, is definitely NOT a good thing.
Working poor with no health care is your version of fair market value?
Nice American Dream you have there................. NOT
How do you figure the wages of plumbers are not set to true market value?Originally posted by: chambersc
Originally posted by: eos
Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.
Shut up.
Their time -- in terms of usefulness -- has passed a long time ago. The fact that your dad is part of an organization that artificially inflates wages and benefits, in direct contrast to the fair market value, is definitely NOT a good thing.
I deal with countless numbers of non-union skilled tradesman every day of my life. The fees they charge are very much set by the market. Asserting that skilled trade wages are not set by the market is mind-numbingly dumb.
If you compare the fee schedules, union and non union, of just about any skilled trade you will see they are directly competing. The typical plumber fee rate is approximately $50/hour. If you call up 50 plumbers, half union and half not, their fee rates are going to be very similar. You will find some disparity between fee schedules, but nothing outrageous.
If you removed the idea from unions the fees wouldn't magically change. A plumber costs $50/hour, dissolving unions isn't going to change that. Say all plumbers unions magically disappeared tomorrow, do you really think thoes involved in the trade are just going to wake up and say "hey, you know, my skill isn't worth $50/hour anymore, it's probably closer to $30/hour. Thank god thoes unions are gone!" A plumber works for the best wage he/she can attain in the free market. The customer will attempt to find the cheapest fee available in the market without sacrificing quality. Simple economics that I'm baffled you're ignoring.
The only reason I can see for your lack of understanding is that you've never hired a skilled tradesman in your entire life. If I am wrong and you have hired at least one (one really isn't a sufficient to gauge), then I really can't understand how you figure wages are artificially inflated.
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
yeah but to be fair i think most of it has more with how we spend then how much we make.
i have seen people who make 25k (around here thats slightly low avg is 30k i think) and live very good. they pay all the bills and manage to put away a decent amount in savings.
But then i know someone who makes $50k (MIL heh) a year and not only had her house Forclosed on but had a car repoed. now she lives in a trailer park and STILl bearly has enough to live. as for savings? pfft she is tring to get SSDI but is healthy.
My father has a lot in the bank. they are retired. they live in a moduler home park (very nice place. looks like a trailer but built like a home). they do not waste money. yet they go on a bunch of small vacations. but when they were younger they did nto do such stuff. they put all they could in the bank for when they retire.
Surely you jest. With the majority, and most responded to, threads being about a forlorn love life, how could you put any creedence in the art of actually living into the responses garnered from this forum. A majority are kids and haven't put their pants on and gone outside. My apologizies to those that aren't.
I make 32$ with medical. For dental and optical I have gone on my wife's plan. 'Tis good money. They (US Govt.) don't take SS and Medicare and your take home pay is much higher than if you were working. My retirement pay was based on the last 5 best consecutive years outta the last 10. Good Luck with whatever you decide!
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
With Michigan's ecconomy I'll be hard pressed to find a job making over $15/hr. Working fulltime at that wage would just get me back to what I'm making after the concessions.
Unless there is something that really sparked my interest to the point of maybe starting my own business it just doesn't seem worthwhile.
Like I said before, turning it down just means that I can revisit the option in September of '08
There's no use debating an issue with people who aren't capable of separating their emotions with an issue.
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