I'm taking a $5000/yr. paycut

[bctbct]

Its always funny to see when the anti Union crowd drop by to bash Unions.

I am Union and I work around different Unions all the time in the commercial and industrial setting. I have never worked around the UAW so all I know about them is what I see on the news.

I also work around non Union people all the time.

Having worked in the construction industry for nearly 20 years some of the largest differences between Union and non Union workers is training. Union apprentices typically attend about 150 hrs of training each year in apprentiships ranging from 4-6 years long, all unpaid. Their pay is also based on their amount of experience, they usually start at 50% of journeymen pay.

We had our annual traing last month and each employee received approx. 20 hrs each of safety training. All of our personel have formal training on scaffold safety, lasers, powder accuated tools, forklifts, lock out tag out, fall protection, confined space to list a few. These are formal classes given by an outside safety training company. You wont see much of this in the non Union sector because of its cost.

Organized Unions started to improve safety, working conditions, and knowledge. It has little to do with pay. Typically we receive O.T. after 8 hrs and on weekends to complete jobs faster.

We compete with the non Union sector for our work. Now to listen to some of you people we are all lazy and over payed, anyone have a valid reasonijg how we are still in business?

When I go to work on Monday there will be 10% of people who could be described as lazy, when we slow down they will be the first to go.

Our wages for journeymen are about the same as non-Union maybe slightly higher. But our benefits are much better. We also attracted the highly skilled workforce because of our over all compensation.

Few lazy people make it in the construction industry period. So when you make your generalizations about Unions, please excuse us.

On the plus side todays work force is not interested in ****** construction jobs so I see our wages increasing dramatically in the next 10-20 years especially if they close the border.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: waggy


You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

No, he makes a lot of money because he knows how to do a job that most people can't/won't do. Learn the diffence between those two senarios.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: waggy

*SNIP*

and this is why i disklike unions.

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

Whoa there, he said his dad is a plumber. Where do you get "little education" out of that?

Next time you have a foot of sewage in your basement or no way to flush your toilet see how much good calling a Rhodes Scholar will do for you.

maybe because i read the thread. you should also.

his said his dad makes $70k a year and left school at 16.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: waggy


You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

No, he makes a lot of money because he knows how to do a job that most people can't/won't do. Learn the diffence between those two senarios.

he also said he would not be makeing that much IF not for the union. wich is why i dislike unions.

they over inflate wages.

 

[jiggahertz]

OP, you work for Visteon?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: waggy

he also said he would not be makeing that much IF not for the union. wich is why i dislike unions.

they over inflate wages.
[/quote]

You could insert college for Unions in your sentence. Same thing if you ask me.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: waggy


and this is why i disklike unions.

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

education...?

In order to become a journeyman you must complete a 4 to 5 year apprenticeship program. This includes going to school on your own time and only making 25-40% of journeyman scale. Once you become a journeyman, you are always taking classes for new technologies and safety.

You know nothing about unions yet you bash them. I'd love for you to come to work with me sometime. Working off a lift 150 feet in the air in zero degree weather or in a 120 degree boiler room making a weld repair. If I can't perform these tasks, I'm gone...laid off...or fired.

You talk about an education and your posts are riddled with spelling and grammar errors. Then you judge a man who has made an honest living and has been able to provide for his family.

Seems to me you just don't know all the facts and are a bit jealous...

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: waggy

he also said he would not be makeing that much IF not for the union. wich is why i dislike unions.

they over inflate wages.

You could insert college for Unions in your sentence. Same thing if you ask me.

[/quote]


very true.

but don't get me wrong. im not knockign the guy for being a plumber. i am knocking the fact that without the union even he admits his father would nto be getting 70k a year.

over inflated pay just for the sake of the being in a union is wrong.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: dartworth

Originally posted by: waggy


and this is why i disklike unions.

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

education...?

In order to become a journeyman you must complete a 4 to 5 year apprenticeship program. This includes going to school on your own time and only making 25-40% of journeyman scale. Once you become a journeyman, you are always taking classes for new technologies and safety.

You know nothing about unions yet you bash them. I'd love for you to come to work with me sometime. Working off a lift 150 feet in the air in zero degree weather or in a 120 degree boiler room making a weld repair. If I can't perform these tasks, I'm gone...laid off...or fired.

You talk about an education and your posts are riddled with spelling and grammar errors. Then you judge a man who has made an honest living and has been able to provide for his family.

Seems to me you just don't know all the facts and are a bit jealous...

jealous? heh nope.

yes i know how long it takes to be a plumber and such. my step dad used to own a construction buseiness out west at least until his health got to bad. Also i have owned a few used car lots and my family has owned business's for years. So yes i do have some knowledge with unions.

also my wife was a teacher. I have to say i think the teachers union is hte most currupt thing i have ever seen. its rather sad.

sure i may not have the best spelling or grammer. but hey at least i got a highschool and college education! woot!

wich in all honesty did not help me in my field. heh but i did have fun!

 

[dartworth]

get you facts straight...most nonunion shops pay the same or close to what a union shop makes. You will find most union employees have a better benefit package.

If nonunion shops pay their employees so much less, why don't they have all the work? Their cost must be obviously lower right?

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: jiggahertz
OP, you work for Visteon?

American Axle, we broke off from GM before Delphi and have had a much more profitable existence.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: bctbct
When I go to work on Monday there will be 10% of people who could be described as lazy, when we slow down they will be the first to go.

I can't take issue with most of what you said, but in my experience (working with union labor) the "first to go" are always those with the least seniority. Short of some sort of gross misconduct, it is practically impossible to let go a union employee with seniority.

I also dislike the strict definitions for union jobs that sometimes means you need workers from several classifications to complete a task that any one of them could otherwise do.

I do believe, however, that unions are helping to slow the erosion of company benefits packages -- for both union and non-union employees.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: waggy



very true.

but don't get me wrong. im not knockign the guy for being a plumber. i am knocking the fact that without the union even he admits his father would nto be getting 70k a year.

over inflated pay just for the sake of the being in a union is wrong.

One thing about the construction industry is that its really a poor work enviornment. Cold/hot, rain and sleet. Think mailman with tools

30 years in construction and your body is old and worn out. Most construction Unions have a pension plan, thats the ticket. Wages are about the same.

OPs dad sounds like a commercial plumber which is very diffent from a guy that comes out to clean your clogs. He has vast knowledge of code, can read prints, input on design, etc.

Dartworth sounds like a pipe fitter or boilermaker, you wouldnt do that job for $12 an hour and neither would I. I wont even bring up how long and how much training it takes to do those two specialized jobs.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: PowerEngineer

I can't take issue with most of what you said, but in my experience (working with union labor) the "first to go" are always those with the least seniority. Short of some sort of gross misconduct, it is practically impossible to let go a union employee with seniority.

I also dislike the strict definitions for union jobs that sometimes means you need workers from several classifications to complete a task that any one of them could otherwise do.

I do believe, however, that unions are helping to slow the erosion of company benefits packages -- for both union and non-union employees.

There is no seniority in the union building trades. You can be hired and fired in the same day. I've seen workers that have been with a shop for over 25 years get laid off.

As far workers not doing the work of other trades...would you want a plumber installing a new 600A transformer in your building, or a carpenter operating a crane and lifting a new 50 ton chiller to the mechanical room on the tenth floor?


bctbct...yeah, I'm a fitter

you?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: dartworth


bctbct...yeah, I'm a fitter

you?

Carpenter by trade, Supt now.

Nobody better make the mistake of calling Dartworth a plumber

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: bctbct


Nobody better make the mistake of calling Dartworth a plumber

:thumbsup:

yeah, you've been around

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: dartworth
get you facts straight...most nonunion shops pay the same or close to what a union shop makes. You will find most union employees have a better benefit package.

If nonunion shops pay their employees so much less, why don't they have all the work? Their cost must be obviously lower right?

We are able to compete for a couple of reasons. One is our employer has sunk a ton of money into technology and put us in a position to compete.

Another is kind of an accidental byproduct of our union trying to protect jobs. What happened was we negotiated long ago for our hourly rank and file to be in-charge of modeling, toolpathing, and quoting. These are normally done by salary engineers and designers. However, by forcing our employer to relinquish these jobs the operation is much more flexible. Each person running each machine has all the know how make and change every program.

About six months ago the prototype lab came to us because a differential was overheating under extremely harsh conditions. They wanted to make a differential cover that looked like the worlds biggest cpu cooler. All these fins 3 1/2 " deep wrapping around the thing at all angles. Every quote they got was for a minimum of six weeks to produce it. We did it in 10 days without even our best programmer, because he was on vacation.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: waggy
maybe because i read the thread. you should also.

his said his dad makes $70k a year and left school at 16.

If he's a union plumber then he was formally educated through an apprenticeship and the premium he derives by being a union plumber is not much if any over a non-union plumber.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: dartworth
get you facts straight...most nonunion shops pay the same or close to what a union shop makes. You will find most union employees have a better benefit package.

If nonunion shops pay their employees so much less, why don't they have all the work? Their cost must be obviously lower right?

We are able to compete for a couple of reasons. One is our employer has sunk a ton of money into technology and put us in a position to compete.

Another is kind of an accidental byproduct of our union trying to protect jobs. What happened was we negotiated long ago for our hourly rank and file to be in-charge of modeling, toolpathing, and quoting. These are normally done by salary engineers and designers. However, by forcing our employer to relinquish these jobs the operation is much more flexible. Each person running each machine has all the know how make and change every program.

About six months ago the prototype lab came to us because a differential was overheating under extremely harsh conditions. They wanted to make a differential cover that looked like the worlds biggest cpu cooler. All these fins 3 1/2 " deep wrapping around the thing at all angles. Every quote they got was for a minimum of six weeks to produce it. We did it in 10 days without even our best programmer, because he was on vacation.

sounds like a good example of why wages paid to workers isn't the best way to measure the true value of employees to a firm.

And unions can be good for employers, as well as employees.

:thumbsup:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: waggy

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

No, he makes a lot of money because he knows how to do a job that most people can't/won't do. Learn the diffence between those two senarios.

he also said he would not be makeing that much IF not for the union. which is why i dislike unions.

they over inflate wages.

Damn straight, they should be competing with China and getting $2.96 hr.

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: waggy

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

No, he makes a lot of money because he knows how to do a job that most people can't/won't do. Learn the diffence between those two senarios.

he also said he would not be makeing that much IF not for the union. which is why i dislike unions.

they over inflate wages.

Damn straight, they should be competing with China and getting $2.96 hr.

Finally someone who grasps basic economics.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER

Originally posted by: Ameesh
fvcking UAW, imo they are terrorists who are going to cause the complete and utter destruction of american manufacturing.

Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

Your right, but when you are pouring billion into paying people to not work and inefficient work rules i am sure it does have an effect on the RnD and marketing budgets...

Umm that last statement is about 80% wrong and the other 20% is only correct because management wanted it. 80% part of the statement: Modern work rules and efficiency in the big 3 are light years ahead today of what they were 2-3 decades ago and pretty competitive with foreign manufacturers. Paying people to not work must be referencing the jobs bank employees of which the majority do in fact work usually at one of the tier one suppliers plants until the company needs them back. This was a program that companies like GM actually proposed to the UAW so that they would have that already trained workforce available when they needed them.

Someone needs to actually get the facts about something rather than keep repeating the uninformed blatherings of idiots be fore they go making stupid statements as fact.

The only reason the jobs bank exists is because it allowed big 3 to adds lots of automation in the early 80s to avoid a strike. The jobs banks was a concession by the big 3, not something they wanted. It was the union that wanted the jobs banks. The jobs banks is a perfect example of what is wrong with UAW, it protects jobs not people. In the end the jobs bank uncompetitive and jobs are going elsewhere. The auto industry is doing well in the US, just not for the big 3.

The big 3 get very little return on the people that sit in the jobs bank and I would be very surprised to see it still there after the next round of contract negotiations with UAW.

As far as work rules go, uaw is getting better, but they still have a long way to go to catch up with the non union plants. Read the habour reports on the auto industry sometime when you get a chance.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

According to the majority of ppl posting in this forum, unions and their members are comminists. These ppl should have been eliminated in the McCarthy era. Why are unions even still around? This is so wrong in a free market world. Shot! The benifits of city, county, State and Federal employees get is rediculious. Such a shame. All our efforts should go to enriching war profiteers don't cha know?

Illeagals have killed most of the union shops here in SoCal...Real sad.

You all get ready to eat dirt & grass in the coming years because I'll be triple dipping, living rural, within the next year. Bwahahaha!

 

[theeedude]

I'd take $36K/year retirement, move to a low cost of living country and live like a king.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: dartworth


bctbct...yeah, I'm a fitter

you?

Carpenter by trade, Supt now.

Nobody better make the mistake of calling Dartworth a plumber

What's the difference between a plumber and a fitter?

To be a plumber, you need to know 4 things;
Hot goes on the left.
Cold goes on the right.
Sh*t don't flow uphill.
Payday's on Friday.

To be a fitter, you only need to know 3 of those...It's expected that you can figure on your own that, if the hot is on the left, cold goes on the right...no one should have to tell you that...

ROFL! As a UNION crane operator, I've worked with the Pipefitters (UA) and their "O-Beam" for many years. Overall, a fine bunch of hands...almost as good as the Ironworkers...
(psst...who's the guy on the job with the size 48 jacket, and the size 3 hardhat?
GOTTA be an Ironhead!