I'm taking a $5000/yr. paycut

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: Squisher
Plumbers are not median. They're skilled tradesmen and when you need one you really need one.

If you specify a median wage, that's about as median as median can get.

No when you say the median income in an area I would assume that we are talking about a goegraphic area. He didn't say the median wages for plumbers was $34K.

I was pointing out that plumbers always make more than the average for an area.

It's hard to do without water and sewage.

Stinky people with chapped lips and piles of poo everywhere.

 

[Eos]

A lot of people act like the UAW is the ONLY union. You're fvcking wrong.

BTW, Dad is a commercial plumber. He did a custom house last year. First one since the 80's during the boom in southern California. Since then he's only worked on commerical projects. Design and build. Imagine taking 6 floors of cast iron waste pipe down to the bottom floor without making too much noise or breaking the pipe from too extreme ells. The inside of the walls looked like a cactus. Gentle turns every floor so your turds don't slam a hole into the side of a 90 degree ell.

 

[Jassi]

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER

Originally posted by: Ameesh
fvcking UAW, imo they are terrorists who are going to cause the complete and utter destruction of american manufacturing.

Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

I've known Engineers who have been the supervisors of UAW members at the former Big 3 and the suppliers. I agree that a lot of workers work hard but a significant number of them enjoy the perks of seniority a little too much, leverage the Union just right and mooch off the system. I've taken plant tours and have seen it in person. Thats why I stayed away from the auto industry.

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

No one with a right mind will say union, UAW to be exact, is the absolute cause for the automotive industry decline.

How about shoddy workmanship, poor quality/reliability problems, poor work ethics, entitlement metality, shall I go on? Yes, the big 3 are getting better on quality/reliability and variety of products but are they up to par with Honda/Toyota and the imports? Just look at the last few years' profits and market shares of GM/Ford/Chrysler and Honda/Toyota/Nissan and other imports. Then you have your answer.

<<<----- worked along side with UAW at GM for almost 10 years so I think I know a few things about UAW and union.

 

[ryan256]

My last g/f nearly got totally screwed by the unions. Her job is non-union. Fortunately they reached an agreement and didn't strike. If they had she'd have been stuck at the plant days on end til the strike was over.
Unions have done alot of good in the past. But today I hear them causing more problems than they solve.

 

[iversonyin]

$5k cut from what type of salary? a $5k cut from $100k is nothing. While a $5k cut from a $30k job is HUGE.

 

[Squisher]

I've never been one to gloss over the problems with unions, but I'll have to say that laziness and shoddy workmanship is at an all time low. The realization has come to those of us still left that we need to weed out the poor performers to compete.

And, are you telling me they are no lazy people or poor performers in non-union companies?

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: iversonyin
$5k cut from what type of salary? a $5k cut from $100k is nothing. While a $5k cut from a $30k job is HUGE.

Pretty close to the middle there.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: Squisher
Well, we vote on a re-negotiated contract Sunday and I'm pretty sure it will pass.

The company planned on outsourcing 90% of our work and taking our die room from 50 people down to 5 guys (we have 35 people on layoff).

Because we're a separate union from the UAW and so small we have little power. We were picked on first, but I'm sure that we are only trend-setters in the auto industry.

I'm happy to do it to keep my job and the jobs of my co-workers.



I wasn't really ready to retire at 49 years old, but there is a provision in the agreement that would allow me to. But, I'll have to think about it. Hmm, sitting on my ass on ATOT all day for $36K/yr........naw.

Sounds real good to me.. you can do plenty with all that time and money... things you sure as hell won't be able to do when you die. Remember, that also means someone else will be employed.

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I've never been one to gloss over the problems with unions, but I'll have to say that laziness and shoddy workmanship is at an all time low. The realization has come to those of us still left that we need to weed out the poor performers to compete.

And, are you telling me they are no lazy people or poor performers in non-union companies?

Not sure if you are asking me but I will give it a shot. There are lazy bums and incompetent idiots everywhere but no where <I worked in a few places besides GM...... Federal and State government, Hotel industry, Entertainment industry to name a few> that has as that much problems as I already mentioned as UAW.

Like I said before, I don't know much about other unions such as plumbing, construction...but if it was up to me, I would fire about 80% of the UAW and keep 20% of the workforce. I will take that 20% and compete with anyone for quality vehicles <Japan/Korea/German/China/etc.>

Like I said already, the big 3 are getting much better than they used to be but is it a little too late? Ford could be in bankruptcy, GM could fall behind Toyota as the world #1 auto maker <only when, not if>, Chrysler is losing money too <not as much as Ford/GM>.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

Someone who left high school at 16 to work as a plumber probably should not be making 70k, I think you demonstrated the problem with unions perfectly.

Why, non-union plumbers make $70K/yr?

Shouldn't union plumbers make the same?

Yes they should make the same, not twice as much. If the median salary is $34k in a given area, there's an economic reason for such a wage.

MOSTLY, it's supply and demand. No one wants to fix their own dammed plumbing or toilets, so the plumbers can charge whatever they want. Same with most of the trades. How many people are qualified to build a house, or set machinery to the tolerances they require, operate heavy equipment and build roads, bridges, etc. to prints? Not many. What most of you union haters forget, is that us tradesmen did our time in our "colleges", called apprenticeships, and work far harder than you ever will in an office. PLUS, we work in all kinds of weather, in difficult or hazardous environments, (ever have to fix a broken toilet that people have used after it broke?)
I dropped out of high school at 16 also, served 4 for the Corps, then got out, and did a 6000 hour apprenticeship. Before I got hurt, (another hazard of the job, dangerous working conditions) I pulled down anywhere between $75K and $90K/year. Not bad for a high school drop out...

Well, if it's supply and demand, what do you need a union for?

People think union's time is over...If people were smart, everyone would rush to join whatever union they could...Having one unified voice when negotiating a raise is FAR better than everyone having to kiss up for their annual raise. NO, not everyone NEEDS a union, and in some jobs, it might not even make sense, but MOST jobs...
"We work best, when we say UNION YES!"

I read that to mean that without a union, you can only get a raise by kissing ass, not by working hard. I don't see that to be true. It makes no sense to me to give everyone a raise, just because, rather than to give a raise to the people who deserve it and no raise to those who don't. Being part of a blanket raise is certainly easier for the people who don't want to work hard.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

You'll have to excuse me so I apologize for being so forward.

That has to be the worst argument I have seen in a LONG LONG time.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

Someone who left high school at 16 to work as a plumber probably should not be making 70k, I think you demonstrated the problem with unions perfectly.

Why, non-union plumbers make $70K/yr?

Shouldn't union plumbers make the same?

difference is a union plumber works half as much as the non-union plumber yet makes the same

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

No one with a right mind will say union, UAW to be exact, is the absolute cause for the automotive industry decline.

How about shoddy workmanship, poor quality/reliability problems, poor work ethics, entitlement metality, shall I go on? Yes, the big 3 are getting better on quality/reliability and variety of products but are they up to par with Honda/Toyota and the imports? Just look at the last few years' profits and market shares of GM/Ford/Chrysler and Honda/Toyota/Nissan and other imports. Then you have your answer.

<<<----- worked along side with UAW at GM for almost 10 years so I think I know a few things about UAW and union.

all products of union mentality. just watch Gung Ho starring Michael Keaton and you will see how unions ruin business.

 

[Eos]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

No one with a right mind will say union, UAW to be exact, is the absolute cause for the automotive industry decline.

How about shoddy workmanship, poor quality/reliability problems, poor work ethics, entitlement metality, shall I go on? Yes, the big 3 are getting better on quality/reliability and variety of products but are they up to par with Honda/Toyota and the imports? Just look at the last few years' profits and market shares of GM/Ford/Chrysler and Honda/Toyota/Nissan and other imports. Then you have your answer.

<<<----- worked along side with UAW at GM for almost 10 years so I think I know a few things about UAW and union.

all products of union mentality. just watch Gung Ho starring Michael Keaton and you will see how unions ruin business.

Are you comparing a movie to real life?

 

[Eos]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

You'll have to excuse me so I apologize for being so forward.

That has to be the worst argument I have seen in a LONG LONG time.

Yay for me.

Let me rephrase.

Because of unions, my dad was able to make something of his life despite leaving high school to provide for me.

Yeah it still sucks. Where's my pistol so I can eat the barrel? :roll:

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

And how does your dad making $70k a year prove unions aren't useless? Most unions I've heard about, including the one I worked with, are filled with lazy useless scum that couldn't get a job anywhere else, but would suck down 50K+ salaries because of their marvelous unions.

The funniest part about unions are the suckers who actually think their union is some grand utopia where everyone is looking out for eachother. The best analogy I can think of is one good cop surrounded by a bunch of dirty cops. The people who love unions the most are the laziest useless to society individuals. God forbid you work hard on a union site. I can't even count the number of times I've had people threaten me and start fights because I actually worked.

Maybe auto and teacher unions are different, but the sooner construction unions are abolished the better.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER

Originally posted by: Ameesh
fvcking UAW, imo they are terrorists who are going to cause the complete and utter destruction of american manufacturing.

Spoken like a complete tool. While the UAW certainly doesn't help things, they are not the "complete" cause of the downfall the Big 3. A big part of that was poor management and inferior products for years.

Your right, but when you are pouring billion into paying people to not work and inefficient work rules i am sure it does have an effect on the RnD and marketing budgets...

Umm that last statement is about 80% wrong and the other 20% is only correct because management wanted it. 80% part of the statement: Modern work rules and efficiency in the big 3 are light years ahead today of what they were 2-3 decades ago and pretty competitive with foreign manufacturers. Paying people to not work must be referencing the jobs bank employees of which the majority do in fact work usually at one of the tier one suppliers plants until the company needs them back. This was a program that companies like GM actually proposed to the UAW so that they would have that already trained workforce available when they needed them.

Someone needs to actually get the facts about something rather than keep repeating the uninformed blatherings of idiots be fore they go making stupid statements as fact.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

You'll have to excuse me so I apologize for being so forward.

That has to be the worst argument I have seen in a LONG LONG time.

Yay for me.

Let me rephrase.

Because of unions, my dad was able to make something of his life despite leaving high school to provide for me.

Yeah it still sucks. Where's my pistol so I can eat the barrel? :roll:

Unions in an of themselves are not bad, but if competition stagnates due to a monopolistic hold a sector they become worse than any evil they could ever hope to oppose.

In addition, while your Dad's fortunes are good, they are an exception to a rule, and a bad one at that.

See what happens when people stop going to school and doing what your dad. Our educated graduates are our bread and butter in this age of globalization.

 

[Eos]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

And how does your dad making $70k a year prove unions aren't useless? Most unions I've heard about, including the one I worked with, are filled with lazy useless scum that couldn't get a job anywhere else, but would suck down 50K+ salaries because of their marvelous unions.

The funniest part about unions are the suckers who actually think their union is some grand utopia where everyone is looking out for eachother. The best analogy I can think of is one good cop surrounded by a bunch of dirty cops. The people who love unions the most are the laziest useless to society individuals. God forbid you work hard on a union site. I can't even count the number of times I've had people threaten me and start fights because I actually worked.

Maybe auto and teacher unions are different, but the sooner construction unions are abolished the better.

It doesn't prove anything. You nor I can't prove anything about anything. I am simply commenting that because of his dedication to the union, he is in a position to provide (and provide well) for his family. Without the union, this would likely not be the current situation. Thus, unions have been useful to my family. It's not a big stretch here. Union pays Dad well = Dad pays taxes and buys lots of stuff = Dad contributes to the economy more than he would if he was poor and used government assistance = unions are useful.

Your experience with unions does not a complete picture make.

Regardless of your first opinion about what unions are filled with, I particularly enjoy your broad brushing of all union employees. This does wonders for your credibility.

 

[Goosemaster]

eos.


I find that most people are addressing the rather selfish perspective that you have taken. I for one, am trying to evaluate your fathers perspective but must also consider the viewpoints of the other parties involved.. When I do that, I find that he is just a lucky uneducated man that got saved by a union job opportunity. I do NOT mean that in a bad way. I'm just being honest and calling them like I see them.

The fact is the concept of the union is to help the little guy defend himself against exploitation and abuse due to corporate greed. your example serves no purpose in prolonging a patriotic view of unions and focuses more on a poetic justice that isn't always there anymore.

So in the end, the union member must ask themselves, am I doing this for the good of my own person, for the good welfare of my peers, for the sustainability and general health of my company, my industry, my country?

To defend such an all-encompassing idea such as unionized labor with "well it helped him make a lot more money than everyone else and he even put his kids through college" is weak.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

And how does your dad making $70k a year prove unions aren't useless? Most unions I've heard about, including the one I worked with, are filled with lazy useless scum that couldn't get a job anywhere else, but would suck down 50K+ salaries because of their marvelous unions.

The funniest part about unions are the suckers who actually think their union is some grand utopia where everyone is looking out for eachother. The best analogy I can think of is one good cop surrounded by a bunch of dirty cops. The people who love unions the most are the laziest useless to society individuals. God forbid you work hard on a union site. I can't even count the number of times I've had people threaten me and start fights because I actually worked.

Maybe auto and teacher unions are different, but the sooner construction unions are abolished the better.

It doesn't prove anything. You nor I can't prove anything about anything. I am simply commenting that because of his dedication to the union, he is in a position to provide (and provide well) for his family. Without the union, this would likely not be the current situation. Thus, unions have been useful to my family. It's not a big stretch here. Union pays Dad well = Dad pays taxes and buys lots of stuff = Dad contributes to the economy more than he would if he was poor and used government assistance = unions are useful.

Your experience with unions does not a complete picture make.

Regardless of your first opinion about what unions are filled with, I particularly enjoy your broad brushing of all union employees. This does wonders for your credibility.

Are you saying that because your dad sucks at his job and because he's in a union he gets to keep making money and if he wasn't in a union no one would hire him? Was he not smart enough to learn to do the job? If so, why does he need the union? Just wondering.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: JS80


all products of union mentality. just watch Gung Ho starring Michael Keaton and you will see how unions ruin business.

to quote someone else in this thread

"You'll have to excuse me so I apologize for being so forward.

That has to be the worst argument I have seen in a LONG LONG time. "

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: eos

Originally posted by: chambersc
Ew, unions. Their time has long passed.

Yeah. Because my dad makes $70k a year (in a $34k a year median area) as a union plumber and left high school at 16. Unions' time passed LONG ago.

Shut up.

And how does your dad making $70k a year prove unions aren't useless? Most unions I've heard about, including the one I worked with, are filled with lazy useless scum that couldn't get a job anywhere else, but would suck down 50K+ salaries because of their marvelous unions.

The funniest part about unions are the suckers who actually think their union is some grand utopia where everyone is looking out for eachother. The best analogy I can think of is one good cop surrounded by a bunch of dirty cops. The people who love unions the most are the laziest useless to society individuals. God forbid you work hard on a union site. I can't even count the number of times I've had people threaten me and start fights because I actually worked.

Maybe auto and teacher unions are different, but the sooner construction unions are abolished the better.

It doesn't prove anything. You nor I can't prove anything about anything. I am simply commenting that because of his dedication to the union, he is in a position to provide (and provide well) for his family. Without the union, this would likely not be the current situation. Thus, unions have been useful to my family. It's not a big stretch here. Union pays Dad well = Dad pays taxes and buys lots of stuff = Dad contributes to the economy more than he would if he was poor and used government assistance = unions are useful.

Your experience with unions does not a complete picture make.

Regardless of your first opinion about what unions are filled with, I particularly enjoy your broad brushing of all union employees. This does wonders for your credibility.

and this is why i disklike unions.

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: waggy

*SNIP*

and this is why i disklike unions.

You have a person who has little education. Who is makeing a lot of money ONLY because of the union. without it he would not be able to have a good paying job. That says a lOT about your father and the union.

Whoa there, he said his dad is a plumber. Where do you get "little education" out of that?

Next time you have a foot of sewage in your basement or no way to flush your toilet see how much good calling a Rhodes Scholar will do for you.