I'm surprised they still make cars without push button start

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Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
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325
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Here's the difference and major flaw with your comparisons - none of those things are mandated, and plenty of people choose not to. But you're talking about forcing these self-driving cars on those who don't want them. That is more along the lines of force-feeding people chocolate whether they like it or not, or forcing people to snort drugs or dumping beer down their throats. That's a more accurate comparison, and that's why I take such issue with you over it.

Besides, we need less freedoms and more government mandates like we need holes in the head. No thank you. Give us the option? Sure. Force us? Heck no.

I assume the government and or insurance rates will force people into automated cars eventually. Self driven cars will be a safety liability eventually. Might as well enjoy driving yourself now.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,968
16,207
136
I would like a coin-operated ignition so I can pretend that I'm playing a arcade driving game!
 
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ZipSpeed

Golden Member
Aug 13, 2007
1,302
169
106
I'm a tech whore so I love me the gadgets and gizmos. I've grown quite accustomed to push-button start and comfort access on my Bimmer without having to take out the key/fob.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,437
1,659
136
That's nice. Would be nice for other makers to give you that option!!!

My Fusion I just got has a cubby hole in the center armrest for placing the fob in to override the need for the RFID if the battery dies. So I can unlock the door with the hidden key and then place the dead fob in the arm rest and still use the push button start.

The problem is they don't want everyone to know how to override it because in theory any fob of nearly the same weight would work. Same-thing with the jeep one. Still needs you to have an emergency key to get in so security risk is smaller. I am sure other push button cars have similar emergency overrides as well. They just don't want it to be popular knowledge.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
I assume the government and or insurance rates will force people into automated cars eventually. Self driven cars will be a safety liability eventually. Might as well enjoy driving yourself now.

And that is exactly what should not happen. I'm not assuming anything nor will I go along with it willingly. No one should welcome the government restricting our mobility around the country, and I question the sanity or intent of those who do.

Again, I'm not saying that push-button start is the beginning of this, nor am I saying that it or automated cars shouldn't exist. For those who want it, fine. But no one should force their wants on others because that's not what this country is all about. You can keep your boring, self-driving car, I'll keep my old manually-driven car, and we should be both happy with that.
 
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LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
My Fusion I just got has a cubby hole in the center armrest for placing the fob in to override the need for the RFID if the battery dies. So I can unlock the door with the hidden key and then place the dead fob in the arm rest and still use the push button start.

The problem is they don't want everyone to know how to override it because in theory any fob of nearly the same weight would work. Same-thing with the jeep one. Still needs you to have an emergency key to get in so security risk is smaller. I am sure other push button cars have similar emergency overrides as well. They just don't want it to be popular knowledge.

Maybe it's not the weight of the fob, but short range rfid backup, like the kind used in stores, that requires no power?

In my jeep, the rfid works without the battery in the fob. The battery only powers the remote functions. It will still start without a battery in the fob.
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
5
0
By pushbutton I'm assuming everyone means 'keyless drive' or whatever you wanna call it. Some cars still have a conventional multi-position switch (off, position 1 (acc), position 2 (run), crank); the key just stays in your pocket.

But that pocket-key is the big thing here.

The most basic conventional system is a cheap antenna ring on the ignition switch and an also-cheap passive key. Adding the fancy fob and the associated controls inside the car is not exactly an insignificant cost increase.

And people expect a full-featured system. At least, I certainly would...if you're going to go through the trouble of keyless ignition, it needs to work well (holding the key out the window should disable starting) and I would want the auto-unlock bit.

One thing is pretty certain: keyed ignition cylinders are worthless. Easiest part to defeat, which why I think the steering wheel lock is usually electric nowadays (so turning the cylinder not only doesn't start it, but you still lack steering).
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Here's the difference and major flaw with your comparisons - none of those things are mandated, and plenty of people choose not to. But you're talking about forcing these self-driving cars on those who don't want them. That is more along the lines of force-feeding people chocolate whether they like it or not, or forcing people to snort drugs or dumping beer down their throats. That's a more accurate comparison, and that's why I take such issue with you over it.

Besides, we need less freedoms and more government mandates like we need holes in the head. No thank you. Give us the option? Sure. Force us? Heck no.
As you know, the self-driving cars being researched now are independent of a change infrastructure. Those who want to continue in the mundane activity of operating a vehicle while others are napping, reading, surfing the net can keep doing it in the future. At least, that is until the technology is so mature that these people become liabilities and are forced to move on or get off the road (similar to how cars eventually replaced horse-drawn carriages).
I hate this stupid push button fad.
It is a trend, not a fad, as evidenced by the increasing prevalence of it and the obvious happiness people with this have with it.
What the hell is wrong with a key turning in the ign. cylinder? It has been done this way for god knows how many years and there is nothing wrong with it.
Drum brakes, no crash-zones, no AC, manual windows were all used for a long time, too. There was "nothing wrong" with them except they were inferior to newer technologies.
And that is exactly what should not happen.
It exactly should happen, and it exactly will. Increasingly standard are techs in vehicles like automatic braking in case of potential rear-ending. As these mature and become more powerful the safety difference between a regular person-driven car and one equipped with lots of sensors and logic will become larger. Reasonably, insurance rates should go down for those with the options as opposed to up for those without. Automobile accidents are a major cause of death and dismemberment in this country. Within the next few decades there will be a monumental shift in computerized transport. This is inevitable. You need to see the bright sides to it, not the negative. Our grand children will look back in shame and dismay at how we live now, that a thousand cars on a road used to have a thousand individual humans, all flawed and only paying marginal attention, driving down the road. Computers can, and will do it better. Every car company knows this and that's why many are pouring money into R&D, lest they totally miss the boat.

The government already forces your behavior when you drive. You can't drive at 100 because you are a risk to others. We all drive our own cars now because there is no other option, but if there were a cheap effective technology that made you 95% safer to everybody around you while driving in a public space, yes the government will enforce it. The truth is eventually it will be impossible to buy a car that isn't mostly autonomous anyway, so as the old cars rust out, they just won't be replaced and that will be that, a shameful 100 year run of traffic accidents and distracted driving thrown into history's dustbin.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
keyed ignitions break all the time. Just saying

all the time? ive been driving for 16 years and ive never seen one break, my parents have been driving for like 50 years and never had one break


i actually have no issues with push buttons or keyless where there is a "fake" key that you still turn

my only issue is that the FOBs are fing HUGE, good god they need to make them a lot smaller FFS some of them are 1/2 the size of a cellphone
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,437
1,659
136
Maybe it's not the weight of the fob, but short range rfid backup, like the kind used in stores, that requires no power?

In my jeep, the rfid works without the battery in the fob. The battery only powers the remote functions. It will still start without a battery in the fob.

Hard to say. Someone would need to open it up remove only the rfid tag and then try to see if they can start it. What I know is that when I pressed down on it with my finger instead of getting hard plastic like I thought I felt a soft rubber membrane. Which to me shouldn't be needed if it was just a had a powered RFID reader plate under it or to the side. So I thought that might be like a weighted pressure sensor.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,437
1,659
136
all the time? ive been driving for 16 years and ive never seen one break, my parents have been driving for like 50 years and never had one break


i actually have no issues with push buttons or keyless where there is a "fake" key that you still turn

my only issue is that the FOBs are fing HUGE, good god they need to make them a lot smaller FFS some of them are 1/2 the size of a cellphone

Part of that is 90% of them have a backup key hidden inside, there is probably an emergency backup cylinder for access if the keyfob stops working somewhere on the car (under the handles). In the end they probably think that it shouldn't be a big issue because people don't have to carry them in an easy to locate area. They just have to have it on their person, so inside pocket on a jacket, or in a laptop bag/purse is fine. The big thing is putting it on a key ring. I don't seems horrible that way, so I just have house key, work key, and "valet" key on a easy to use key ring and leave the fob in my jacket.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Hard to say. Someone would need to open it up remove only the rfid tag and then try to see if they can start it. What I know is that when I pressed down on it with my finger instead of getting hard plastic like I thought I felt a soft rubber membrane. Which to me shouldn't be needed if it was just a had a powered RFID reader plate under it or to the side. So I thought that might be like a weighted pressure sensor.

It's apparently the same low battery backup system, just implemented differently.

In the Jeep, you remove the push button and use the slot. A receiver is very close to the slot.

In the Ford, you have a receiver right there under that spot where you put the fob.

Both of these are to receive a very weak signal. Either from a weak fob battery, or from a backup non-powered short range RFID chip in the fob.

Essentially you are putting the fob right next to a receiving antenna.

There are several receiving antennas in the vehicle, so the vehicle knows you are in proximity anywhere around the vehicle, and so the vehicle can locate the fob.

Wiki:

Backup in case of low battery

If the battery in the Smart key becomes depleted, it is necessary for there to be a backup method of opening and starting the vehicle. Opening is achieved by an emergency (fully mechanical) key blade usually hidden in the Smart key. On some cars starting is achieved by a transponder inside the Smart key that does not need batteries to work. The user either has to put the key in a slot or hold it near a special area on the cockpit, where there is another LF antenna (transponder coil) hidden behind to compensate for a weakened fob battery.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
This
I was pleasantly surprised when I sat in the FR-S/GT86 how nice and simple it is inside. Feels just like something from the 90's, which is so awesome to me. The car had immediate appeal to me because of it.

2013-Scion-FR-S-interior1-1024x640.jpg

And yet - the same car sold by Subaru has push button start available....along with navigation and automatic climate control...I assume you hate the car because of it, right?
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
all the time? ive been driving for 16 years and ive never seen one break, my parents have been driving for like 50 years and never had one break


i actually have no issues with push buttons or keyless where there is a "fake" key that you still turn

my only issue is that the FOBs are fing HUGE, good god they need to make them a lot smaller FFS some of them are 1/2 the size of a cellphone

They're no bigger than a regular key fob these days.

volt-fob.jpg