I'm poor. I deserve nice stuff like everyone else

[cbrunny]

Nope. Make your way.

Lol that's asinine. I pity you.

 

[brianmanahan]

"you will always have the poor among you"

 

[fskimospy]

It's based on financial need. Where do you see that it's not available to all poor people that qualify? I'd imagine that fewer than 58% of the people that attend UCSD are from poor families, which means not only are poor people covered but so is the lower middle class.

While I agree that poor people can often go to college for little or no tuition this is not a broadly generalizable thing. It's not like if every poor kid in America suddenly knocked it out of the park in high school that colleges would suddenly admit them all tuition free. It works because poor people generally go to bad high schools so colleges don't have to absorb that many of them.

I went to UCSD and campus was not exactly overflowing with the indigent.

 

[elitejp]

The question I ask is how much more do we need to do to give a helping hand? It's like gun laws. The vast majority of law abiding citizens aren't going to be affected by gun laws because they already use them in a legal way. And the criminals don't really care either because they aren't going through the legal way to begin with.
it isn't that America turns a blind eye but rather that there truly is it so much you can do for someone else before they need to do something for themselves.

 

[nickqt]

According to their study, "food insecurity" is the biggest problem in rural areas, which generally have much lower crime rates than urban areas. It also seems to be defined as an at-risk thing (e.g. occasional days of hunger every few months) rather than a long-term case of starvation and "simply dying". That the problem is also the biggest in the South, aka obesity land, I think the questions on a balanced diet tend to skew things as well.

I mean, if it's really a problem then fine, increase SNAP benefits, it's a trivial thing compared to most other welfare services, but pretty much no one is actually put into a steal or starve situation.

It's more than that, though.

First, you need nutritious food, from the moment of conception, till you die, otherwise your body doesn't work correctly. The first 60 days after conception are extremely important, and a lot of women aren't even aware they're pregnant until 30+ days after they are pregnant. A diet lacking folic acid can result in spina bifida and other congenital defects, and can impair organogenesis.

So, the kind of food available is an issue from literally day 0. If an embryo and fetus is starved of a good diet, brain development can suffer, which can increase the likelihood of the kid having a lower IQ, and behavioral problems.

Obesity is another problem, and it is almost always directly attributable to sugar content of food...so that even though someone is obese, it doesn't mean they are getting all of the vitamins and minerals that they need for their bodies to function properly. Throw off some key vitamins and minerals, and then the neurohormonal system is off-whack, so that even if the kid developed decently enough as a fetus, their body is still out of whack in terms of hormones and chemistry. Do it for long enough, and you'll have structural defects in the organs and even the brain, in effect creating disease. High blood sugar leads to metabolic syndrome, such as hypertension, which then damages the body's vascular system, while also damaging the pancreas and fat cells of the body.

If you ever go to a homeless shelter, almost all of the food is high in calories, but it's all carbohydrates, and very little protein. Sure, based on Maslow's hierarchy calories will keep you alive, but after awhile those empty calories are going to end up rotting your body from the inside. But carbs are cheap and plentiful, whereas protein is more expensive.

I'd say that wherever you find high levels of metabolic syndrome and obesity, you also will find food insecurity, at least in the sense that the people aren't getting the right foods, typically because of how expensive they are, or the requirements to store them (refrigerator) or prepare them (a kitchen/time/knowledge). Add in the lack of exercise as society is more sedentary, and the amount of sugar found in everything is a key component of healthcare costs, and food insecurity. But hey, gotta keep those subsidies flowing to the corn industry so they can turn corn into sugar so we can keep poisoning ourselves.

 

[elitejp]

Then that's a problem the govt should correct. Beans and rice don't cost much of anything yet it provides you with a complete range of essential amino acids that most proteins don't have.
There is just a lot of waste and the govt just doesn't care. The program is in place but its so dysfunctional that nothing gets accomplished.

 

[Jhhnn]

What this whole song & dance about education shows is nearly everybody's willingness to play into false memes.

Why does better education mean more jobs when it doesn't mean that at all? It just means employers will hike qualifications.

What's happening is that the need for human labor is decreasing all the time, particularly in this country. The enormous & increasing productivity per worker proves that. So we're left in a moralistic bind between the need for everybody to work (as in Jamestown) and the reality of automated production. We don't need for everybody to work all the time. What we need is a different way to look at it and to distribute goods & services to a growing number of people whose efforts in the workplace essentially aren't needed in the profit motive scheme of things. If we can't, then demand for such things will actually decrease providing even fewer employment opportunities.

We won't get that from the moralizations & insecurities of those fortunate enough to be employed. Beggar they neighbor won't work any better at the domestic level than it does internationally.

 

[nickqt]

Then that's a problem the govt should correct. Beans and rice don't cost much of anything yet it provides you with a complete range of essential amino acids that most proteins don't have.
There is just a lot of waste and the govt just doesn't care. The program is in place but its so dysfunctional that nothing gets accomplished.

SNAP is a federal program.

It is administered...wait for it...by the states.

States typically do a shit-tier job with federal funds, writing their own rules and regulations. Throw in the fact that it's much cheaper to purchase a state senator, and you end up with lax regulations that allow the most profit for the right kind of people.

What this whole song & dance about education shows is nearly everybody's willingness to play into false memes.

Why does better education mean more jobs when it doesn't mean that at all? It just means employers will hike qualifications.

What's happening is that the need for human labor is decreasing all the time, particularly in this country. The enormous & increasing productivity per worker proves that. So we're left in a moralistic bind between the need for everybody to work (as in Jamestown) and the reality of automated production. We don't need for everybody to work all the time. What we need is a different way to look at it and to distribute goods & services to a growing number of people whose efforts in the workplace essentially aren't needed in the profit motive scheme of things. If we can't, then demand for such things will actually decrease providing even fewer employment opportunities.

We won't get that from the moralizations & insecurities of those fortunate enough to be employed. Beggar they neighbor won't work any better at the domestic level than it does internationally.

Well, sure, you see the long-term problem with how our society has ordered itself, and that in any game of musical chairs, the music tends to get faster and faster as less and less chairs are available.

As a species, and a society, we have the capability to rework the economic system so that we aren't pretending that there are 160 million good-paying jobs within the US alone, nevermind 3.5 billion good-paying jobs around the world. Automation and technology are going to continue to advance, destroying jobs. We don't have to let them destroy the economy, but only if we can lose the myopic, today-will-exist-forever attitude we have about economics and politics.

Of course, the most near-sighted people are going to bitch and moan that they're doing OK, so everyone else should be doing just as OK, because something something hard work, something something bootstraps.

 

[Ackmed]

And you are exaggerating to support your opinion.

You don't think if all of the sudden there was free college but at a community level and not main Universities that people wouldn't then bitch that they didn't get the best colleges for free? I'd bet everything I had that some people would still bitch, because someone still had it better than them.

I beg to differ; if you work, you should get paid enough to live without being thrown into debt. Real easy to say otherwise, when you're getting paid a damn sight more.



It's called hyperbole ya dunce. Obvious exaggeration to make a point.




So the problem with people not being paid enough to live, is that people should be paid enough to live?

What?

If someone lives within their means, maybe. Almost everyone is in debt, rich or poor. Just because someone works doesn't mean that they should be able to go buy whatever the hell the want. Yeah I get paid a good bit more, because I worked for it. I also started out on minimum wage at $4.25 an hour. I also used it to get through high school and then started working real jobs.

Oh, insults as normal. I know it's an exaggeration, I stated it was.

The problem isn't that people don't get paid enough to live, it's that they often times try to live outside their means or made financial/life mistakes. There are things I want for my family and myself, but can't afford or don't want to be stretched too thin. I don't have a right to these things, and I don't demand I should get paid more to obtain them.

The strange fascination with people of the middle and upper class to dump on the poor is sad. I can rattle off a ton of people I know that live below the poverty line and work full time jobs. There are also some that finance away their entire welfare check. Just like there are rich people that cheated the system to get there, yet we don't dump on all rich people calling them cheaters. Generalizing an entire portion of the US (15%, no less) as being lazy, entitled, envious, and dumb is not healthy.

The strange fascination with people generalizing an entire portion of the posters as dumping on the poor is not healthy. See how easy that is? I never did that, all I said is that people should stay within their means. That goes for poor, middle and upper class. I also said "a lot of people today think they are entitled", I never said just the poor. I also said "not all poor people think like that". So perhaps you should take your own advice, and not generalize. To use your example, I know plenty of people who make good money, but they want want want. Boat, motorcycle, cars, huge house, etc. Like the poor, they're not living within their means and live paycheck to paycheck and are in the hole big time.

People are born a better/worse hand, that is just how it is. This is true for the parents we get, place of birth, and even who we are. Some people are just athletic as shit, and good looking. Some people can't dribble a ball and are overweight and ugly. That's just how it is. Sure it sucks for someone working uphill all their life, but that doesn't mean that taking away from those who worked hard is the right idea, or even fair. There should be things in place to help those less fortunate I believe within reason.

 

[Ackmed]

What this whole song & dance about education shows is nearly everybody's willingness to play into false memes.

Why does better education mean more jobs when it doesn't mean that at all? It just means employers will hike qualifications.

I agree that education isn't what it's cracked up to be like it once was. Sure it can help, and even be a requirement for some jobs. But is hardly necessary to be successful in life. My wife was in her second semester in college before she turned 18, had an academic scholarship. She's smart as shit, smarter than me in most book related things. She had her Masters by age 24. I am 41 and just now in school for my Bachelors. I did have some "school" but not at a University or college, but the military. I am not even going to a "real" school, but one that is 100% online. Because I work a crazy hour full time job with wife and 3 kids. I make a little over 2x what she does without college, but instead used real world experience. And she doesn't even use her degree, she quit teaching a few years ago. Makes more now than if she still was.

Free college was just a part of my post that got singled out as things that people think they deserve. We as Americans, poor or not are gravitating towards an entitlement mindset. We want what others have, and think it's our "right" to have it. People need to work for what they want, use what resources are available and make the best of it. There will ALWAYS be someone with better stuff than you, that doesn't mean you should have equal. (not directing at 'you' just saying in general)

 

[Subyman]

Are you saying that UCSD (and many other large public colleges) are lying about the amount of financial aid they disperse?

I think you need a better sample than one school. It shows the average student graduating is in debt $21,700 with 60% getting loans, so it would seem many students have a combination of tuition relief and loans. Depending on the school there may be quite a lot of private grants. If you notice, the school heavily relies on "institutional aid/scholarships" (far more than state and federal) and their admittance rate is relatively low. UCSD is a top ranking research university that brings in billions in research grants and funding.

This university ranks number 6 in the world for the amount of money they bring in for research and only 1/4 of that money actually goes to R&D. The rest goes into the university for things such as scholarships and aid. This university is not the norm.

 

[Subyman]

The strange fascination with people generalizing an entire portion of the posters as dumping on the poor is not healthy. See how easy that is? I never did that, all I said is that people should stay within their means. That goes for poor, middle and upper class. I also said "a lot of people today think they are entitled", I never said just the poor. I also said "not all poor people think like that". So perhaps you should take your own advice, and not generalize. To use your example, I know plenty of people who make good money, but they want want want. Boat, motorcycle, cars, huge house, etc. Like the poor, they're not living within their means and live paycheck to paycheck and are in the hole big time.

People are born a better/worse hand, that is just how it is. This is true for the parents we get, place of birth, and even who we are. Some people are just athletic as shit, and good looking. Some people can't dribble a ball and are overweight and ugly. That's just how it is. Sure it sucks for someone working uphill all their life, but that doesn't mean that taking away from those who worked hard is the right idea, or even fair. There should be things in place to help those less fortunate I believe within reason.

I never quoted you. Funny how you took offense... Maybe you do think lowly of the poor since you imagined my post was directed your way. If you are one of those people that live in the middle/upper class that like to dump on the poor then my post likely applies, if not, then it doesn't apply. I never said all people in the middle/upper class like to blah blah. :thumbsup:

 

[Subyman]

I agree that education isn't what it's cracked up to be like it once was. Sure it can help, and even be a requirement for some jobs. But is hardly necessary to be successful in life. My wife was in her second semester in college before she turned 18, had an academic scholarship. She's smart as shit, smarter than me in most book related things. She had her Masters by age 24. I am 41 and just now in school for my Bachelors. I did have some "school" but not at a University or college, but the military. I am not even going to a "real" school, but one that is 100% online. Because I work a crazy hour full time job with wife and 3 kids. I make a little over 2x what she does without college, but instead used real world experience. And she doesn't even use her degree, she quit teaching a few years ago. Makes more now than if she still was.

Free college was just a part of my post that got singled out as things that people think they deserve. We as Americans, poor or not are gravitating towards an entitlement mindset. We want what others have, and think it's our "right" to have it. People need to work for what they want, use what resources are available and make the best of it. There will ALWAYS be someone with better stuff than you, that doesn't mean you should have equal. (not directing at 'you' just saying in general)

Well, to be fair, your wife had three kids over that period of time (I'm assuming they aren't adopted, if so then I apologize.) So I'm sure that had a lot to do with her career goals and eventual salary. That is the problem with anecdotes though. We need to look at statistics. People with college degrees undoubtably make more money over their life time than people without a degree in aggregate.

However, I believe we need more vocational schools. Tradesmen make much more money than people realize and the work is plentiful.

 

[Ackmed]

I never quoted you. Funny how you took offense... Maybe you do think lowly of the poor since you imagined my post was directed your way. If you are one of those people that live in the middle/upper class that like to dump on the poor then my post likely applies, if not, then it doesn't apply. I never said all people in the middle/upper class like to blah blah. :thumbsup:

You posted three posts after me, and after two people who quoted and replied to me. It is very reasonable to assume you were talking about me. Don't throw out the troll line if you won't want a response.

Well, to be fair, your wife had three kids over that period of time (I'm assuming they aren't adopted, if so then I apologize.) So I'm sure that had a lot to do with her career goals and eventual salary. That is the problem with anecdotes though. We need to look at statistics. People with college degrees undoubtably make more money over their life time than people without a degree in aggregate.

However, I believe we need more vocational schools. Tradesmen make much more money than people realize and the work is plentiful.

I never said I gave birth, but good job stating the obvious. They are not adopted. Men can't (yet) have babies. Being a teacher is probably one of the easier professions to have children with for women because of the hours. Steady day work ours, holidays, summers, etc. She quit because she was miserable.

She makes more at her job now due to her degree, just because it was used as a bargaining tool. She was a high school teacher, but got tired of it. You can't discipline the kids, they run the schools, you have to pass everyone no matter if they deserve to be or not. But that's a different story. So she went back to what she did to get through college, retail. Makes a pretty good amount with bonuses and all included, little over 50k. Highest paid manager in the district. Partly due to her degree, partly because she is very good at her job. Yes people with degrees on average make more than those without. I agree with you on tradesmen schools, except you won't be able to call them that much longer because it is offensive to women. That is basically what I did in the military, went to various "schools" or courses and used that with my experience to land a good job.

 

[Subyman]

You posted three posts after me, and after two people who quoted and replied to me. It is very reasonable to assume you were talking about me. Don't throw out the troll line if you won't want a response.

Frankly, I read the OP and responded. I didn't keep up with the thread.

I never said I gave birth, but good job stating the obvious. They are not adopted. Men can't (yet) have babies. Being a teacher is probably one of the easier professions to have children with for women because of the hours. Steady day work ours, holidays, summers, etc. She quit because she was miserable.

That is my point though. You said you make more than your wife who got her Masters degree and promoted that like college isn't a big deal anymore. I pointed out that her career goals were likely a huge reason for the salary difference because of the kids, which you just confirmed. People without higher education can certainly make it, especially in small business, but their path is not traditional and typically more difficult.

 

[Ackmed]

That is my point though. You said you make more than your wife who got her Masters degree and promoted that like college isn't a big deal anymore. I pointed out that her career goals were likely a huge reason for the salary difference because of the kids, which you just confirmed. People without higher education can certainly make it, especially in small business, but their path is not traditional and typically more difficult.

No, what I actually said was, "I agree that education isn't what it's cracked up to be like it once was. Sure it can help, and even be a requirement for some jobs. But is hardly necessary to be successful in life." And all of that is true.

She was a teacher because most of her family did it. Her dad retired as principle of a large High School, and actually is back part time because he got bored. Her cousins are teachers in Atl, some other family members are in various other places. Like a lot of people she did what was expected of her, she's a huge daddy's girl. She didn't do it because of having kids, she started school for her degree before we even met. She didn't quit because of the kids, she quit because of other people's kids.

Yes people with degrees most of the time have it better than those without. I never said they didn't, I said that it is not a requirement to be successful in life. It can certainly make things easier, but can also leave you with huge dept, especially if you don't actually use the degree. Some jobs absolutely need a degree. I am not saying that people shouldn't go to college, just that I don't think everyone should get it free and that everyone has to have it to live life.

But this is wayyyyy off the original topic. I brought up free school because some people think that they deserve it, along with other free things. The fact that a gas station I stopped at had energy drinks with "EBT Approved" on them, and a separate card machine just for EBT cards is pathetic. Aside from a very very few select items in the gas station I am not sure what an EBT car is supposed to be used for in a gas station. But hey, more free stuff.

 

[Jhhnn]

I agree that education isn't what it's cracked up to be like it once was. Sure it can help, and even be a requirement for some jobs. But is hardly necessary to be successful in life. My wife was in her second semester in college before she turned 18, had an academic scholarship. She's smart as shit, smarter than me in most book related things. She had her Masters by age 24. I am 41 and just now in school for my Bachelors. I did have some "school" but not at a University or college, but the military. I am not even going to a "real" school, but one that is 100% online. Because I work a crazy hour full time job with wife and 3 kids. I make a little over 2x what she does without college, but instead used real world experience. And she doesn't even use her degree, she quit teaching a few years ago. Makes more now than if she still was.

Free college was just a part of my post that got singled out as things that people think they deserve. We as Americans, poor or not are gravitating towards an entitlement mindset. We want what others have, and think it's our "right" to have it. People need to work for what they want, use what resources are available and make the best of it. There will ALWAYS be someone with better stuff than you, that doesn't mean you should have equal. (not directing at 'you' just saying in general)

Whoosh, huh?

 

[MongGrel]

Whoosh, huh?

 

[Ackmed]

Whoosh, huh?

Insightful post, thanks for the quality reply. I was agreeing with you and used part of you post to respond and expand on.

 

[Jhhnn]

Insightful post, thanks for the quality reply. I was agreeing with you and used part of you post to respond and expand on.

My apologies. I haven't interacted much with you & shouldn't have been so dismissive. I don't think of it in terms of entitlement so much as in terms of expectations of aggregate opportunity that isn't there.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

I agree that education isn't what it's cracked up to be like it once was. Sure it can help, and even be a requirement for some jobs. But is hardly necessary to be successful in life. My wife was in her second semester in college before she turned 18, had an academic scholarship. She's smart as shit, smarter than me in most book related things. She had her Masters by age 24. I am 41 and just now in school for my Bachelors. I did have some "school" but not at a University or college, but the military. I am not even going to a "real" school, but one that is 100% online. Because I work a crazy hour full time job with wife and 3 kids. I make a little over 2x what she does without college, but instead used real world experience. And she doesn't even use her degree, she quit teaching a few years ago. Makes more now than if she still was.

Free college was just a part of my post that got singled out as things that people think they deserve. We as Americans, poor or not are gravitating towards an entitlement mindset. We want what others have, and think it's our "right" to have it. People need to work for what they want, use what resources are available and make the best of it. There will ALWAYS be someone with better stuff than you, that doesn't mean you should have equal. (not directing at 'you' just saying in general)

Says the guy on govt welfare.... Collecting a big fat pension from uncle Sam, while getting a worthless degree, and taking a job from someone with a real degree, because you know people.

Your whole life is just a prime example of assisted living, and now you made it, and you want to burn the bridge behind you. Talk about a sense of entitlement...

 

[Jhhnn]

Says the guy on govt welfare.... Collecting a big fat pension from uncle s
Sam, while getting a worthless degree, and taking a job from someone with a real degree, because you know people.

Your whole life is just a prime example of welfare, and now you made it, and you want to burn the bridge behind you. Talk about a sense of entitlement...

Savage idiocy.

 

[elitejp]

SNAP is a federal program.

It is administered...wait for it...by the states.

Yes the govt. We have local, state, and federal. Its still the govt.

 

[elitejp]

Savage idiocy.

Some people are just in there own world.

Unfortunately jhhnn if it wasn't for people like you the poor wouldn't have anyone to get free money from.

I have to remind myself that quite often. I'm running my own business now and overall I'm making money. But I almost went under and so I brought in a partner. He invested enough to keep me afloat but also now gets 35% profit. It wasn't the best deal for me but at the time the business wasn't doing to food and I'm sure he didn't think it was a good deal for him.
Anyways its doing good now and he gets a nice little extra sum of money every now and then when we split the profit.

The thing is that's it's very easy for me to think that he doesn't deserve that money. But I have to remind myself that without his help I wouldn't operating a business today. So I thank him whenever I get the chance.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Some people are just in there own world.

Unfortunately jhhnn if it wasn't for people like you the poor wouldn't have anyone to get free money from.

I have to remind myself that quite often. I'm running my own business now and overall I'm making money. But I almost went under and so I brought in a partner. He invested enough to keep me afloat but also now gets 35% profit. It wasn't the best deal for me but at the time the business wasn't doing to food and I'm sure he didn't think it was a good deal for him.
Anyways its doing good now and he gets a nice little extra sum of money every now and then when we split the profit.

The thing is that's it's very easy for me to think that he doesn't deserve that money. But I have to remind myself that without his help I wouldn't operating a business today. So I thank him whenever I get the chance.

Sounds like entitlement! You feel entitled to the full success, despite the fact the only thing you did on your own was fail.

Tell the truth, your partner was a close relative that bailed you out, right?