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I'm ashamed of a lot of Americans

Disclaimer: Before anyone goes off the deep end, this is partially a parody of that silly rant thread from earlier. That being said, there is a point here if you are willing to look for it...

I'm not ashamed of people who are different from me, this isn't about pro-war conservatives or anti-war liberals, or any other combination. This is about people who have latched on to one of the most disturbing trends in America today.

Like a lot of poorly thought out positions, this trend comes from something President Bush said..."You're either with us or against us", and while many Americans think the comment rather ill-advised, certain people have grabbed hold of it like a drowning man to a life preserver. Those 7 words form the basis of the uncompromising black and white view of the world that has truly transformed what could have been a reasonable debate into a pointless rant-fest.

Like I said before, it's not about being pro-war or anti-war...it's about people who don't understand there can be more than two sides to an issue, people who's binary way of viewing the war on terror has convinced them their fellow Americans are the real enemy. It's about not being able to understand the difference between wanting a plan for winning in Iraq, and wanting to pull out with the job half-finished. President Bush himself doesn't seem to understand the difference, despite a growing concern for just how exactly the US is going to deal with serious obstacles to winning the war in Iraq, Bush continues to respond that now isn't the right time to pull out. Which is right, but that's not the problem being discussed. And like lemmings, the black and white crowd is following Bush off this cliff, complaining that anyone who asks for specific plans wants to pull out of Iraq without winning. Nothing could be farther from the truth, it is a desire to win in Iraq that prompts most of these questions. Tough talk and patriotic bluster are not plans, and pretending otherwise isn't going to win anything.

But it goes far beyond just the war in Iraq, here at home a disturbingly large number of our elected representitives made the mistake of not understanding the difference between defending the US and renewing the Patriot Act, and many Americans followed right behind them. Nevermind that analysis after analysis, much of them done by our intelligence and law enforcement agencies and the 9/11 investigation group, suggests the Patriot Act doesn't solve any of the issues in our law enforcement and intelligence setup and pose serious legal and ethical questions. All that matters is that these people were told that the Patriot Act would help fight terrorism, and being against it must mean they support the terrorists. The existance of a third option, introducing measures that actually solve our defense problems, never occured to a lot of people, because the idea that it is possible to oppose both the Patriot Act AND terrorism never crossed their minds.

That all being said, this disturbing lack of understanding isn't why I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed because these people are so quick and so willing to visciously attack their fellow Americans for nothing more than having a different view of the war on terror. The absolute arrogance these people show in thinking that they alone want to defend America makes you wonder just what this country stands for any more. Whatever happend to the basic ideals of this country, the idea that democracy's power comes from many different viewpoints? The comparison has been beaten to death, but the sort of behavior shown by these people reminds me of nothing so much as the "patriots" supporting the communist witch hunts during the red scare. Suggesting that there is only one way to think if you want to support your country is one of the most un-American ideas in history, and words about fighting for freedom and liberty ring hollow in the face of that kind of belief.

The irony is that this plays right into the terrorists' hands. Instead of pulling together and coming up with a well thought out plan comprised of many different ideas, we've managed to turn on each other to the point where I'm fully convinced many Americans have forgotten just who it is we're fighting.
 
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.
 
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

No real point, just sharing my views on the subject. That's what this forum is for...right? I don't actually expect I'm going to change anyone's mind, just sharing the contents of mine 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Tab
Rainsford, have you ever considered running for office?

Maybe sometime in the future, right now I don't think I have enough idea of my views in general yet. I'm only 22 after all 😉
 
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

Oh yes. Democracy is a "dead dogma" and has been long accepted, without understanding, by Americans. US Government can do whatever Sh~t they want and call it "democracy". A truth without understanding is no better than a fallacy. John Stuart Mill says.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Tab
Rainsford, have you ever considered running for office?

Maybe sometime in the future, right now I don't think I have enough idea of my views in general yet. I'm only 22 after all 😉

I don't know if your in college or what path you've decided to take in your life. I myself would highly suggest a political science major. 😀

I might go that way, but I would rather work for the FBI/CIA or something like that... 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that for example, most citizens in the U.K take a much more active role in politics. I've talk to some and they are stunned that many americans aren't interested in our own countries politics.

Why is that?
 
Rainsford,

Excellent rant. :thumbsup:

Everywhere I look, serious political discussion has become either taboo or results in a shouting match declaring "you stole the election" or "you're with the terrorists".

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that for example, most citizens in the U.K take a much more active role in politics. I've talk to some and they are stunned that many americans aren't interested in our own countries politics.

Why is that?

"FER CRISSAKES PIPE DOWN--DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES IS ON!!!!"

😉


 
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

couldn't.
i couldn't care less about the rest of you people.

(i agree, by the by.)
 
Wow.

:beer: (since you're 22).

Simply a beautiful thought out post. You are a man among boys Rainsford. May it take you far in life.
 
I actually support Bush's "With us or against us" mentality, it was never meant to be used to pit Republicans and Democrats against each other; this has always been the case. In fact, most of the domestic in-fighting tends to be due to the social agenda of reformists like myself who support gay-marriage and other progressive issues. Marriage was never an issue before, because it was always accepted as between a man and a woman; liberals and conservatives alike had this view. These issues are coming to a head and these are what are dividing the country apart, not so much the words of the president. Hell, the social fight is an issue in all countries at the moment, the US is not immune to this.

The "with us or against us" comment was a phase used to unite all nations against one problem in the world: terrorism. Quite frankly, it had to be addressed; not by going into iraq necessarily but through better intelligence and a cracking down on the funding and propagandists of these ideals. For the most part it worked, the world was cmpassionate to the cause and almost fully supported these standards of life (more could have been pushed on the mid east, but was lost with the iraq war imo). Bush has not used the phase frequently, and has not been a core issue in his vision. Of course he wants to push his own agenda, so do the Democrats; this is nothing new.

That being said, I do think Bush's policies have been extreme and divisive; some his fault (proposing it), some not (democrats unwilling to comprimise).
 
Originally posted by: catnap1972
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Honestly Rainsford, I like you. But whats the point of this post?

The biggest problem in America is apathy. We could care less about eachother, much less some Iraqi half a world away. As long as the majority of our population relegates everything to the government then nothing will change.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that for example, most citizens in the U.K take a much more active role in politics. I've talk to some and they are stunned that many americans aren't interested in our own countries politics.

Why is that?

"FER CRISSAKES PIPE DOWN--DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES IS ON!!!!"

😉

I don't think is so much that we have other things to do it simply that we don't care about politics. Politics to many people is just plain boring, it's not interesting. It's hard for someone who isn't involved to suddenly get into a debate about gay-marriage,Iraq War or the Karl-Rove-Plame-Wilson ordeal.

Another fact is that your life will go on even if you don't take an active role in politics.
 
I think some people just can not commit. I look at some democrats who ran for office and they dont seem to stand for anything! If you have to look at a pole to make a decision you care more for popular opinion than what is the right thing for America!
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
I actually support Bush's "With us or against us" mentality, it was never meant to be used to pit Republicans and Democrats against each other; this has always been the case. In fact, most of the domestic in-fighting tends to be due to the social agenda of reformists like myself who support gay-marriage and other progressive issues. Marriage was never an issue before, because it was always accepted as between a man and a woman; liberals and conservatives alike had this view. These issues are coming to a head and these are what are dividing the country apart, not so much the words of the president. Hell, the social fight is an issue in all countries at the moment, the US is not immune to this.

The "with us or against us" comment was a phase used to unite all nations against one problem in the world: terrorism. Quite frankly, it had to be addressed; not by going into iraq necessarily but through better intelligence and a cracking down on the funding and propagandists of these ideals. For the most part it worked, the world was cmpassionate to the cause and almost fully supported these standards of life (more could have been pushed on the mid east, but was lost with the iraq war imo). Bush has not used the phase frequently, and has not been a core issue in his vision. Of course he wants to push his own agenda, so do the Democrats; this is nothing new.

That being said, I do think Bush's policies have been extreme and divisive; some his fault (proposing it), some not (democrats unwilling to comprimise).

No, his mentality of "your either with us or against us" to put it bluntly is just plain stupid. It's a false dichomoty(sp?), you're polarzing the issuse. It's no different than saying your either "pro-war" or "anti-war", "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion".

Was Canada supportive of our invasion of Iraq or Vietnam? No, they were not. Does this mean you're agaisnt us? No.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
I think some people just can not commit. I look at some democrats who ran for office and they dont seem to stand for anything! If you have to look at a pole to make a decision you care more for popular opinion than what is the right thing for America!

http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html

I hear that alot (it must be a talking point) but it means little. What you mean is the Democrats are not simple single issue people. I guess "stand for" = wedge issues?
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
I think some people just can not commit. I look at some democrats who ran for office and they dont seem to stand for anything! If you have to look at a pole to make a decision you care more for popular opinion than what is the right thing for America!

polls suck. everyone is looking at them, though. maybe its just too obvious on the left. but the whole bush "i dont look at the polls" is just too much to believe. especially in light of war name changes and other PR moves.

 
Originally posted by: Tab
No, his mentality of "your either with us or against us" to put it bluntly is just plain stupid. It's a false dichomoty(sp?), you're polarzing the issuse. It's no different than saying your either "pro-war" or "anti-war", "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion".

Was Canada supportive of our invasion of Iraq or Vietnam? No, they were not. Does this mean you're agaisnt us? No.
The issue was terrorism...don't extrapolate for other means...
Global support in the gathering of intelligence is paramount in the supression of terrorism. It was a divisive issue, and rightfully so. Terrorism or no terrorism...join us in the collection of information or get shunned by the world.

wars and social issues have logical arguments both ways; but terrorism is unjustified.
 
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