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(Illinois) State House passes gay rights bill

So alchemize, if they added that said something like, "discrimination cannot be inferred from the lack of a protected class being hired" to deal with your employment concern how would you feel about this bill?
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
So alchemize, if they added that said something like, "discrimination cannot be inferred from the lack of a protected class being hired" to deal with your employment concern how would you feel about this bill?
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Huh? No, I don't think this bill should have been passed at all. I disagree with behavior-based class protections.

I was observing what the unintended consequences will be. You can't legislate tolerance. You can cause organizations to change their hiring behavior because of the "risk" of an applicant.
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: alchemize
[You can't legislate tolerance.
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No but you can legislate "Fairness"
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So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu to go sell to my customers over another equally qualified candidate? Yah, that's fair.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
I disagree with behavior-based class protections.
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Do you think homosexuality is a choice? That's what I understand when you say behavior-based.
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Feel free to scientifically prove me wrong (note: people saying "I've always felt this way" isn't scientific proof). I'll change my position 180 degrees. To this point, it's never been proven to be genetic.
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
State House passes gay rights bill

Another protected class. This will make things worse from an employment perspective - "defensive" hiring. Given the choice between 2 equal candidates, and one is a potential lawsuit, which would you choose?
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While I find this special behavior protection legislation raises a few red flags - I find this a bit disturbing also:
On their final day of business before a new lineup of lawmakers is sworn in today, the Democratic-led General Assembly also carved up part of suburbia to allow more women and minority judges to be elected and moved to put extra cash in the pockets of locked-out union members.
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CsG
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
I disagree with behavior-based class protections.
Click to expand...

Do you think homosexuality is a choice? That's what I understand when you say behavior-based.
Click to expand...
Feel free to scientifically prove me wrong (note: people saying "I've always felt this way" isn't scientific proof). I'll change my position 180 degrees. To this point, it's never been proven to be genetic.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. If it were really behavior-based I _might_ agree with you. That said, given your tutu comment I suspect you haven't met many openly gay people and thus are speaking from ignorance on the subject. You don't have scientific evidence that straight people are in fact straight but based on their behavior don't you just think it's something they can't help? Why do you draw a line for gay people?

PS Do you believe evolution has been scientifically proven? Just asking that to see your baseline of reasonableness...
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: alchemize
[You can't legislate tolerance.
Click to expand...
No but you can legislate "Fairness"
Click to expand...
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu to go sell to my customers over another equally qualified candidate? Yah, that's fair.
Click to expand...
How would that force you to hire anybody who wore a pink tutu to work?:roll:

Maybe you can add this post to your list.
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
I disagree with behavior-based class protections.
Click to expand...

Do you think homosexuality is a choice? That's what I understand when you say behavior-based.
Click to expand...
Feel free to scientifically prove me wrong (note: people saying "I've always felt this way" isn't scientific proof). I'll change my position 180 degrees. To this point, it's never been proven to be genetic.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. If it were really behavior-based I _might_ agree with you. That said, given your tutu comment I suspect you haven't met many openly gay people and thus are speaking from ignorance on the subject. You don't have scientific evidence that straight people are in fact straight but based on their behavior don't you just think it's something they can't help? Why do you draw a line for gay people?

PS Do you believe evolution has been scientifically proven? Just asking that to see your baseline of reasonableness...
Click to expand...
Well, let's see. My step-brother is openly gay and has HIV. I've known him for over 15 years. He probably would disagree with you on "how many gay people I've met". "making fun of gays" is one of gay people's favorite pasttimes. I'm thinking you don't know many openly-gay people....or you haven't reached a comfort level where they treat you as an equal and allow you to join in their calling each other queens and bitches and so forth...

I fail to see the relevance of your evolution discussion. If you'd like to start another thread on that, I'll give my opinion there. I will say that there is much more evidence of evolution than there is that being gay is "genetic".

 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Interesting. So in this case, I can legally discriminate against the straight person that wears drag, but not the gay person, correct?

 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Like Dick Morris and the late J Edgar Hoover?
 
Maybe alchimeize wouldn't be so scared of gay people if he actually knew some? I only suspect he doesn't know any self-admitted gays because he has such bizarre notions about them. As if most gay people dress like the other sex to work. Please. Even if the law prevented you from discriminating gainst sexual preference it wouldn't stop you from discriminating against cross-dressers. As czar points out, cross-dressing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality.
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Interesting. So in this case, I can legally discriminate against the straight person that wears drag, but not the gay person, correct?
Click to expand...

If the gay person was in drag you could discriminate against them too.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Interesting. So in this case, I can legally discriminate against the straight person that wears drag, but not the gay person, correct?
Click to expand...

If the gay person was in drag you could discriminate against them too.
Click to expand...
Yeah this wouldn't entitle someone who is gay to dress inappropriately for the job. Hell if the person was a Male Homosexual he probably would be the best dressed employee you had.
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...
:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...
oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Like Dick Morris and the late J Edgar Hoover?
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And Republican Representatives in Texas
 
how is it forcing you to hire someone, cross-dressing or no?

and you can add dwayne hoover to the list of tutu-clad good employees.

wait a minute...didnt Breakfast of Champions take place in Illinois?
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: alchemize
So it's fair to legally force me to hire someone who comes in wearing a pink TuTu ...
Click to expand...

:roll:
Click to expand...
OK, substitute that for a man wearing any women's clothing. A nice skirt, blouse, and pumps...
Click to expand...

oh the little you know, I have known a few stright guys who liked to wear drag
Click to expand...
Interesting. So in this case, I can legally discriminate against the straight person that wears drag, but not the gay person, correct?
Click to expand...

If the gay person was in drag you could discriminate against them too.
Click to expand...
How can I? This law defends transgendered...I would assume this covers pre-operative. Also, if a man comes in cross-dressed, do I need to determine if he is cross-gendered first? Then if he is not, do I have to determine if he is gay or straight? If I ask any of these questions, and then don't hire that person, I probably can assume a lawsuit will be filed?

 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Maybe alchimeize wouldn't be so scared of gay people if he actually knew some? I only suspect he doesn't know any self-admitted gays because he has such bizarre notions about them. As if most gay people dress like the other sex to work. Please. Even if the law prevented you from discriminating gainst sexual preference it wouldn't stop you from discriminating against cross-dressers. As czar points out, cross-dressing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality.
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Well, maybe Info-troll wouldn't ASSume so much if he actually read my posts - please read a few posts up where I reference my homosexual stepbrother. Would you like me to outline the other gay people I know and my relationship with them? I'm sure RedDawn is waiting for me to so he can slip in some kind of funny hah hah anal joke (remember, it's only permissable for liberals to call other's gay or make reference to that).

Please address the trans-gendered issue before you spout off about cross-dressers.

OH, this law also covers bi-sexuals. So much for the genetic thing...


 
First of all I don't think transgender applies to everyday cross-dressers. It applies to people that feel they were born in the wrong body or switch sexes. Once they change sexes, they are deemed to be officially the other sex. Sure, in the small cases where someone is pre-op you might have to do it but in this case they would probably already be taking hormones and stuff. I don't think anybody expects you to have a fully biological man dressed in a skirt run your candy store.

 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
First of all I don't think transgender applies to everyday cross-dressers. It applies to people that feel they were born in the wrong body or switch sexes. Once they change sexes, they are deemed to be officially the other sex. Sure, in the small cases where someone is pre-op you might have to do it but in this case they would probably already be taking hormones and stuff. I don't think anybody expects you to have a fully biological man dressed in a skirt run your candy store.
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You just opened up a whole huge can of worms about the sillyness of this law.

- Who determines that someone who "feels" they were born in the wrong body is truly transgendered.
- Are they homosexual or heterosexual? How do you determine that? With the sex they have, or the sex they want to become?
- If they "make the switch", and then are heterosexual, can they be discriminated against, or is that superseded by their "transgender" status?
- What if they change their minds after they've been hired, pre-op, and determine they are not trans-gendered, or gay, but just like to wear the opposite sex clothes? Then can they be discriminated against if that makes the opposite sex uncomfortable? What if they change their mind post operation?

 
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