Illegals getting more hositle in the demands for amnetsy

[dank69]

They are less American. And in fact illegals are no more Americans than I am a Mexican just because I ate at Taco Bell.

If your family/friends are a bunch of criminals maybe you should feel bad?



Are black people criminals like illegal immigrants are?

Are you seriously comparing deriding people who commit crimes with deriding people who have a certain skin color?

So your opinion then is that it is okay to call black people that commit crimes ******s?

 

[poofyhairguy]

The conversation isn't also about what I feel, it's about what most Hispanic Americans feel when they or their friends and family are derided as "Illegals!" or anchor babies, and that somehow this makes them less legitimate and/or less American. It's pretty much as simple as that.

If they are American citizens they should be concerned about law breakers in their country, and if they are not then I don't care if they are offended when someone gets upset they break the law.

It's pretty much as simple as that.

 

[nehalem256]

So your opinion then is that it is okay to call black people that commit crimes ******s?

I would certainly not get all butt-hurt about it.

Don't want to get called bad names, don't commit crimes. Seems pretty reasonable.

 

[BUnit1701]

No I believe in procedure. Next tarded question.



Nope.



Yes it does.



lol, no shit. Read what I wrote. Carefully.

So, for pointing out the fact that those who remain beyond the date allowed by their visas are by definition 'illegal', I am a 'knuckledragger.' Apparently that is your only point?

 

[dank69]

I would certainly not get all butt-hurt about it.

Don't want to get called bad names, don't commit crimes. Seems pretty reasonable.

Lots of fucked up things seem reasonable to you. I'm sure that's on account of the whole world being fucked up and you being the only reasonable one.

 

[davmat787]

So, for pointing out the fact that those who remain beyond the date allowed by their visas are by definition 'illegal', I am a 'knuckledragger.' Apparently that is your only point?

Pretty much, and I don't get it either. If I entered a country illegally, I certainly wouldn't be worried about being labeled "illegal" vs. "undocumented". Why some people are more concerned with hurting someone's feelings than holding them accountable is beyond me.

And the politicians are only pandering for future votes, should an amnesty occur, when they use that term or make an issue of it.

Like someone else said: "Those aren't illegal drugs judge, they are undocumented prescriptions!" :awe:

 

[First]

I wouldn't be proud that the RNC agrees with you.

Not proud, I am showing you even the RNC, the most partisan organization a party has, can agree their own word usage has been piss poor. Their point crystallizes and confirms my own; an acknowledgement that their party has been overwhelmingly hostile to "Illegals!" in their tone and word usage. Tone. Word usage. There's no need for it.

And you still didn't answer my question, just went straight to the N* word race card. That seems to be a common tactic with this issue. Don't agree? You must be racist or I will at least infer it by making stupid comparisons to African Americans!

rofl, woosh. That's the sound of my black analogy going over your head. Who said anything about you being racist again?

But I am glad to see you support a sustainable immigration policy that supports a diverse pool of immigrants. Worrying about words like illegal alien won't lead to one however. The issue is so much bigger than that, and I think you know that but are worried about losing your certified 100% progressive card. 🙂

The issue is bigger than the term "Illegals!".....and I've never argued otherwise.

I swear, some of you guys need to read and think more critically.

If they are American citizens they should be concerned about law breakers in their country, and if they are not then I don't care if they are offended when someone gets upset they break the law.

It's pretty much as simple as that.

Spoken like a person who has never employed, befriended and/or spoken at any meaningful length with an "Illegal!". Ask yourself why you're so angry they border-cross illegally or let their work visas expire.

Oh, and remember, you're a law breaking mofo too; you've shattered speed limits, jaywalked, driven above .08 BAC, smoked weed, etc. This notion it's all about the law is pure horseshit, otherwise your disdain would apply equally to those who perform these acts of frequent law breaking....yet where is the outage on those issues? Uh huh.

 

[BUnit1701]

...
Spoken like a person who has never employed, befriended and/or spoken at any meaningful length with an "Illegal!". Ask yourself why you're so angry they border-cross illegally or let their work visas expire.

Oh, and remember, you're a law breaking mofo too; you've shattered speed limits, jaywalked, driven above .08 BAC, smoked weed, etc. This notion it's all about the law is pure horseshit, otherwise your disdain would apply equally to those who perform these acts of frequent law breaking....yet where is the outage on those issues? Uh huh.

So, we can't be upset they violate our laws because we dont know them? Wow, that is some strong reasoning there...

Perhaps you are familiar with the idea of misdemeanor vs felony? Some crimes are low impact, others are considered to be very VERY bad. Trying to equate those who speed to illegal immigrants is not a valid comparison.

 

[First]

So, we can't be upset they violate our laws because we dont know them? Wow, that is some strong reasoning there...

Nowhere did I draw any of the conclusions you just did. Try harder.

Perhaps you are familiar with the idea of misdemeanor vs felony? Some crimes are low impact, others are considered to be very VERY bad. Trying to equate those who speed to illegal immigrants is not a valid comparison.

....annnnnd why isn't it a valid comparison? Come on, show your word kid.

 

[BUnit1701]

Nowhere did I draw any of the conclusions you just did. Try harder.



....annnnnd why isn't it a valid comparison? Come on, show your word kid.

OK, so in your world, jaywalkers and murderers both belong on death row? Litterers and pedophiles are equally evil and reprehensible? This isn't complicated.

 

[First]

OK, so in your world, jaywalkers and murderers both belong on death row? Litterers and pedophiles are equally evil and reprehensible? This isn't complicated.

Ah, I see, waving the white flag. Fair enough, you were boring anyway.

 

[BUnit1701]

Ah, I see, waving the white flag. Fair enough, you were boring anyway.

? I guess I now understand how to debate, ignore anything the other person types and claim they surrendered.

 

[First]

? I guess I now understand how to debate, ignore anything the other person types and claim they surrendered.

You surrendered when you didn't attempt to answer why equating speeding to illegal immigrants is not a valid comparison. Come on, show your work; why not? Try hard this time.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Spoken like a person who has never employed, befriended and/or spoken at any meaningful length with an "Illegal!". Ask yourself why you're so angry they border-cross illegally or let their work visas expire.

First of all, I am a Texan I know many illegals. Secondly I am not angry, heck I eat illegal picked fruit and lived in illegal cleaned houses.

I just don't think those people deserve the same rights as those who played by the rules. What kind of message does amnesty send?

Oh, and remember, you're a law breaking mofo too; you've shattered speed limits, jaywalked, driven above .08 BAC, smoked weed, etc. This notion it's all about the law is pure horseshit, otherwise your disdain would apply equally to those who perform these acts of frequent law breaking....yet where is the outage on those issues? Uh huh.

Actually if you read my posts I am for drug legalization, and the reform of other laws that don't make sense.

Something like drinking and driving, or feeling you have the same rights as actual citizens when you are not is not the same thing as a law that doesn't make sense.

Go to any developed nation and they will have a strict path to citizenship. I can't go to Canada or France and live there illegally and expect I get all the rights of a citizen if the shit hits the fan.

Same should be true in America.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

The drug users obviously, but that is not the question.

The questions who is easier to stop. In your analogy that is the drug dealers.

We will NEVER end the desire for cheap domestic labor. Someone needs to pick fruit, plant lumber, work in meat plants, build houses, etc.

What we can impede the flow of that labor by building huge fences. Not stop it, but slow it.

I don't think (and no national security expert believes so either) a fence is going to solve anything and it will cost $$$$$$.

Cheap labour will always flow to where the demand is.

Solution seems pretty simple to me.

 

[BUnit1701]

You surrendered when you didn't attempt to answer why equating speeding to illegal immigrants is not a valid comparison. Come on, show your work; why not? Try hard this time.

Speeding is a misdemeanor. Illegal immigration is a felony. I can draw it up in crayon if that will help.

 

[First]

First of all, I am a Texan I know many illegals. Secondly I am not angry, heck I eat illegal picked fruit and lived in illegal cleaned houses.

I just don't think those people deserve the same rights as those who played by the rules. What kind of message does amnesty send?

So to summarize, and correct me if I'm wrong; you believe that "the message" it sends to amnesty 11M people, the moral hazard, is clearly much (or somewhat?) worse than allowing immigrants the full rights, protections and privileges of American citizenship, so much so that you'd rather not legalize them knowing they will never be able to achieve upward mobility anywhere near the order of magnitude they'd be able to by being legalized?

Actually if you read my posts I am for drug legalization, and the reform of other laws that don't make sense.

Something like drinking and driving, or feeling you have the same rights as actual citizens when you are not is not the same thing as a law that doesn't make sense.

One, your illegal drugs point isn't germane really, as alcohol is legal.

Two, I'm not sure I follow you on your drunk driving point, so I'll just ask you this: Does the harm immigrants cause when they cross the border or let their work visas expire so they can live and work in the U.S. compare anywhere near to the harm drunk driving causes, which can include potential death and destruction? Is one more serious than the other and why, then, does an act of Congress legalizing them harm you directly or indirectly, and does it elicit the same strong response from you and others proportional with the harm it causes? Just think about it.

Go to any developed nation and they will have a strict path to citizenship. I can't go to Canada or France and live there illegally and expect I get all the rights of a citizen if the shit hits the fan.

Same should be true in America.

Well for one, no one is tripping over themselves to get into Canada or France as compared to the U.S. That's first and most importantly. And two, other countries have very different values and very different rules of law, so the comparison is difficult and a slippery slope. Would you use the same justification for socialized medicine or dictatorships, of which there are many other countries with such forms of government?

 

[First]

Speeding is a misdemeanor. Illegal immigration is a felony. I can draw it up in crayon if that will help.

You still lost; what is invalid about the comparison of this felony vs. this misdemeanor to you? Come on, try even harder this time. I'll help; what harm was inflicted upon you in either scenario? Think.

 

[davmat787]

First, I am starting to get the impression you favor a completely open border and immigration policy. How about just laying your cards on the table, perhaps we will understand your POV better: What is your ideal immigration and border policy? What do you propose to do with the current group of illegal immigrants here already?

 

[davmat787]

You still lost; what is invalid about the comparison of this felony vs. this misdemeanor to you? Come on, try even harder this time. I'll help; what harm was inflicted upon you in either scenario? Think.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What harm was inflicted upon you with the Sandy Hook tragedy? Or any of the people killed in Chicago yesterday?

Just because one is directly and personally impacted does not negate the need for law and order on the whole.

"You still lost?" What are you in 6th grade? lol. Not nice to say to bunit.

 

[BUnit1701]

You still lost; what is invalid about the comparison of this felony vs. this misdemeanor to you? Come on, try even harder this time. I'll help; what harm was inflicted upon you in either scenario? Think.

The average speeder : zero impact on me in any way, shape, or form.

The average illegal : zero direct impact, but places a drag on my local, state, and national economy in the form of use of public services without appropriate payment of taxes and the disbursement of some portion of their earnings back to their home country rather than being spent in the local economy.

I fail to see how the personal impact has any relevance to the fact that speeding is a minor crime by definition, while violation of our immigration law is a major crime by definition.

 

[First]

The average speeder : zero impact on me in any way, shape, or form.

Haha, well no wonder you're confused. Speeding is the #2 cause of auto accidents in the United States, of which there are nearly 11M per year based on the latest Census data.

Please, tell me again how speeding has no impact on your life.

The average illegal : zero direct impact, but places a drag on my local, state, and national economy in the form of use of public services without appropriate payment of taxes and the disbursement of some portion of their earnings back to their home country rather than being spent in the local economy.

Sorry, already debated and entered into evidence; as stated earlier, the CBO scored the proposed Senate bill and concluded legalizing immigrants and enforcing the border would still result in a net economic benefit to the country of $135B over 10 years, or $200B without border enforcement. There's no question that outweighs the few billions they consume in state or federal gov't services over a 10 year period.

I fail to see how the personal impact has any relevance to the fact that speeding is a minor crime by definition, while violation of our immigration law is a major crime by definition.

Yes, because clearly every American is far more offended by laws that are broken based on how they are defined in the criminal and civil codes (not enough rolling eyes emoticons for this one).

 

[nehalem256]

So to summarize, and correct me if I'm wrong; you believe that "the message" it sends to amnesty 11M people, the moral hazard, is clearly much (or somewhat?) worse than allowing immigrants the full rights, protections and privileges of American citizenship, so much so that you'd rather not legalize them knowing they will never be able to achieve upward mobility anywhere near the order of magnitude they'd be able to by being legalized?

They don't deserve to achieve upward mobility.

You are basically upset that law breakers are being punished for being law breakers. Or let me amend that since if being "undocumented" were actually a punishment they would have stayed in mexico... you are upset that law breakers are not being rewarded as much as they could be.

 

[First]

First, I am starting to get the impression you favor a completely open border and immigration policy. How about just laying your cards on the table, perhaps we will understand your POV better: What is your ideal immigration and border policy? What do you propose to do with the current group of illegal immigrants here already?

I've already stated it, reread carefully. This Senate bill is a great start, with strict border enforcement and a 13-year path to citizenship that doesn't reward the moral hazard of illegal border crossing or letting work visas expire.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What harm was inflicted upon you with the Sandy Hook tragedy? Or any of the people killed in Chicago yesterday?

Just because one is directly and personally impacted does not negate the need for law and order on the whole.

"You still lost?" What are you in 6th grade? lol. Not nice to say to bunit.

Yikes. I don't think you quite understand why law exists in the first place. It's exactly because certain things may cause someone harm that laws exist at all.

 

[BUnit1701]

Haha, well no wonder you're confused. Speeding is the #2 cause of auto accidents in the United States, of which there are nearly 11M per year based on the latest Census data.

Please, tell me again how speeding has no impact your life.

I have not once in my lifetime been involved in a traffic accident involving another driver, much less one who was speeding. Impact on my life not found.

Sorry, already debated and entered into evidence; as stated earlier, the CBO scored the proposed Senate Bill 3434 and concluded legalizing immigrants and enforcing the border would still result in a net economic benefit to the country of $135B over 10 years, or $200B without border enforcement. There's no question that outweighs the few billions they consume in state or federal gov't services over a 10 year period.

That's lovely, except SB 3434 is not law, so at present, they are not positive contributors. However, I find it telling that you believe that instead of punishing those who have broken our laws and harmed our country, we should change the laws in order to reward their illegal behavior. In case you are not aware, we tried that before, in the '80s. It obviously didn't work.

Yes, because clearly every American is far more offended by laws that are broken based on how they are defined in the criminal and civil codes (not enough rolling eyes emoticons for this one).

If you are equally offended by someone jaywalking and an arsonist, I suggest you are the minority in this country.