No, there is such a thing as a victimless crime. This is a good example of that. There is not personal injury nor is there lost revenue from what they currently have. This isn't justifying the theft, but your comparison to rape really is one dimensional. The only parallel with that analogy is your first point, which was comparing the attitude of "M$ is eVil" to the "She wore a short skirt." I think beyond that, however, the similarites end.
No, there is such a thing as a victimless crime. This is a good example of that. There is not personal injury nor is there lost revenue from what they currently have. This isn't justifying the theft, but your comparison to rape really is one dimensional. The only parallel with that analogy is your first point, which was comparing the attitude of "M$ is eVil" to the "She wore a short skirt." I think beyond that, however, the similarites end.
Like I said, A1. I'm not saying anyone's right here. I'm just questioning the credibility of a source called "Doctor Zebra," so please save your indignation for something that warrants it.
Amused
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They do not. This is NOT a victimless crime. You are taking the benefits of another's labor without permission or paying them. They ARE losing revenue... no matter how much people vainly attempt to claim it's not so. The vast majority of people here with pirated copies of XP would buy it were they unable, or unwilling to steal it.
Amused
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I never labeled them the same, nor did I say the crimes were similar beyond the fact that the excuse making was the same, and that the victim was blamed.
Please try and READ what I'm saying, instead of seeing the word "rapist" and throwing fits, OK?
Red, now that your back in the thread, can you answer my media player questions (I responded to your earlier post, but it's probably 4 pages back now..)
Bill
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
No, I want people to look at the meaning of what I write, and not have knee-jerk reactions over one word.
It's not a knee-jerk reaction. However, you did admit that it was an extreme example, so I'll you that.
Ok, then I'll just write it off to another anti-ms rant (you claimed you couldn't listen to your own mp3's anylonger with the new media player), which is not true.
Bill
Red Dawn
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Did I say that? I don't recall saying that. I thought I said that the new EULA agreement for the WMP uprade/ patch gave MS the right to upload software to my system that could disable my ability to play my MP3's. At least that's my understanding from what what I've read.
Fundementally, I think this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think it's a victimless crime. Bill Gates doesn't feel a stabbing pain in his chest everytime a pirated copy of XP is installed. Microsoft does not lose any money that they have currently when someone installs a pirated copy of XP.
You could quantify it as "potential revenue" if you want, but it is not a the same as if you have a pen and I took the pen from you thus you no longer have the pen. In that case you are the victim.
Speeding is a victimless crime. There is no direct recipient of the transgression. The same with pirating. There's no direct transgression against the corporation only the indirect loss of potential revenue. Bob in programming doesn't loss his job at Acme Software because haXor l337moNk3y installed a pirated copy of Acme OS. It's indirect. That's not saying it's right, it's just not a crime with a victim in the traditional sense.
I responded more fully in the earlier post, but the issue is around their ability to disable other software that will try and circumvent secure content (e.g. so you can take a purchased song from an online vendor and 'steal' it into a normal mp3 without content protection). Their palladium efforts are around the same thing. Anyhow, long story short, it won't affect your playing mp3's you've ripped. It might affect you if you download/purchase secure music and then try to circumvent the protections.
Best,
Bill
Amused
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Stealing the product of another without paying for it is a crime with a victim. Would it be any less a crime for your boss to not pay you for a weeks worth of work? You're not losing anything... except your time.
Oh, but wait, MS DOES have an investment here; their time and cost in producing the product. By taking the product without paying them, you are stealing their time and production costs, plus any profit they are entitled to.
This IS a crime with a victim. You are robbing them of their rights to their intellectual property and by doing so, you are robbing them of their time and investments into the product they developed.
The complete sense of entitlement, selfishness and lack of foresight among some members here amazes me. Where do you think software, music, art, inventions and literature would be today if artists, writers, inventers and software developers did not have intellectual rights to their property, if intellectual property theft was not a crime?
Wishful thinking. And here's the answer:
They won't choke on this one.
You should read up on Palladium sometime (and soon) before you consider sticking with Microsoft OSes. You may think that it is within your legal right to play your MP3s, but Microsoft doesn't, and patches to Windows Media Player and, soon, WinXP will give Microsoft the ability to:
1) Make you unable to play copyrighted music
2) Delete files from your computer
I guess you've got a few options. Though I'd be happy to see people like you, who just want to play their music and enjoy their computers like they're supposed to, switch to Linux (or, hell, MacOS) perhaps it would equally productive to start writing to Senators/Congresspeople and trying to get stuff like TCPA stopped.
Required Reading: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
-Shy
BS! Photoshop is price appropriately for what it provides. If you think it's too expensive, buy Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop elements. Both I belive are under $100 and do everything the average user needs for digital RGB photo editing. You reall don't NEED Photoshop.
People just want Photoshop because they believe saying they have it makes them a 1337 photoretouching uber-pro.
IMHO, Microsoft products are overpriced since you can buy OSX instead of XP Pro for cheaper and you can buy OSX Server (or Linux) instead of 2000 Server / .NET Server without having to buy client licenses.
Shy, I know Palladium makes for nice scary big brother stuff, but suggesting things like 'you won't be able to play your own MP3's' is not fact, it's fiction. Palladium, WMP8, etc are adding support for digital rights management. Part of DRM (and why it's ALWAYS failed in the past) is that people can always get around it, Palladium offers more protections that the content is not as easily stolen. They do this by adding hardware to the machine that can participate in secure operations. This translates into content companies (Universal, Sony, etc) 'in theory' selling you secure content and feeling confident you can't jump on the P2P network on the day and share it with 1 million of your closest friends.
And yes, if you install (say) a hacked sound card driver which would allow you to 'steal' the bitstream out of the palladium trusted environment, the environment will either a) refuse to play the secure content (note: not all content, just the secure stuff, your rip'd MP3's are NOT secure content) or b) remove that driver. Do I like these choices? Not really, but if we are going to talk about MS and DRM, lets keep it on facts not wild conjecture and scare tactics.
These environments already exist today, every satellite receiver and cable box work with similar principals to protect content. And you are right if you don't even want the ability to purchase and download secure content, you can switch to say Linux. Then again, if you don't want the ability, and therefor don't buy 'secure content', you don't need to switch from Windows as you won't be affected either.
Bill
I do not think there is a victim. If my boss choose not to pay me, there is a direct victim. Me. Pretty simple. However, the developer still gets paid whether or not the pirated copies are installed. The developer compensation isn't based on how many copies of XP are sold.
Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
In this example, I'd argue the victim is the company itself (which is comprised if all of it's stock owners). They weren't paid, therefor the price value of the company is diminished.
Bill
Amused
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By 'developer" I meant MS in general. and you've just proven my point. MS has paid it's employees for their labor, but if you do not compensate MS when you use their products, you have made them the direct victims. They have paid both time and money to develop XP, and ARE losing money when the product is stolen, intead of purchased... just as you would be if your boss told you he's not paying you for your hours.
Not really. I didn't prove your point.
They've sold copies and since I don't consider a corporation to be direct victim of piracy, there's no victim in the same sense that not being paid by your employer. Further to this, I would say the person who owned the copy of the disc from which the install is taken from is the victim. The individual consumer that will probably have to prove ownership to MS is the real victim, not MS. Although the harassment is more of an indirect result, but the copy or license is owned by the individual and thus "stolen" from them unless they choose to lend it to someone.
How much money does GE lose when I give my microwave to a friend instead of him buying one? How much money does Random House lose when I give a text box to my friend instead of him buying one at the book store? I read the book. The knowledge is still in my brain. In fact, I even took notes on each chapter of the book so I could utilize the knowledge later. The fact is nobody lost money because it was never counted or had in the first place. Same situation here. MS can't have stolen what they don't have in the first place. If you want to agree with me on the point of potential revenue, then I will agree that they are indeed losing potential revenue, but they are not losing money that they currently have.
Amused
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It simply amazes me what absurd lengths you'll go to justify theft of intellectual property. MS is nothing but their "potential revenue." That's what intellectual property is all about. If denied their "potential revenue" no one will invent, create or write. There would be no incentive. This "potential revenue" IS the thing being stolen here.
Finally, I will say it yet again, YOU have no right to benefit from the labor of others without justly compensating them.
How many fscking times must I say before it gets through yout thick, thick skull, I am not saying that theft is right.
Are you really that daft that you can't read what I'm posting in almost everyone of my replies?
Geez.
1) MS is not all but their potential revenue and neither is intellectual property all about potential revenue. Don't state your opinions as fact. Just because you shout the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.
2) "If denied their "potential revenue" no one will invent, create or write. There would be no incentive." is also a big steamy pile as well. Two reasons: first, nobodies denying their right to potential revenue and secondly, civilization has managed to invent, create, and write for sometime now before MS came along. In fact there are some radicals that even make there code open source. So don't make this seem like an apocolypic downfall of the inventiveness of man. Heck, you could even argue that MS isn't all that innovative all at this point. I see Apple and the GNU/ Linux community as making bigger strides in the way of innovation. MS is still resting their laurels on Win95 and more worried about controlling your fridge, microwave, and toaster through the Xbox.
3) "YOU have no right to benefit from the labor of others without justly compensating them" yes. we know. you've been playing the same one string guitar this whole thread. I still waiting for you to address the points that I have made or do you only have this one point?
edit: you know what amazes me is the lengths that you'll go to completely ignore what people say in their post just so that you can make statements accusing them of justifiing theft or question their level of education or calling them irrational or just plain not acknowledging points. The list goes on, but frankly it boils down to this: you're pig-headed and have no interest in hearing ideas that are not in line with your own. And when confronted with something that challeneges your own fragile mindset, rather than debate the idea, you lunge for an insult and simply shout out what you've already said. fantastic. it's a good strategy and i hope it continues to serve you well.
Originally posted by: docmanhattan
Like I said, A1. I'm not saying anyone's right here. I'm just questioning the credibility of a source called "Doctor Zebra," so please save your indignation for something that warrants it.
Sweet Mary dude. Doctor Zebra was one site of the many I viewed. It had the most comprehensive medical history, that's why I posted it.
How's this? Better??
from www.whitehouse.gov
Washington enjoyed less than three years of retirement at Mount Vernon, for he died of a throat infection December 14, 1799. For months the Nation mourned him.
I guess it's a government conspiracy now...
c'mon. you're telling me that you found the name "Doctor Zebra" to be credible. No need to get your undies in a bundle over it, the whitehouse.gov source is fine.
so ...um sure. it's a government conspiracy now.
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