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Illegal doesn't make them criminals

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Originally posted by: palehorse74
nobody has denied that it is also possible to be an "illegal" and not a "criminal."

However, if they knowingly enter the US illegally, then they are both.
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Well, that is how I interpretted this quote:
Originally posted by: Shivetya
While I find the title amusing, after all a criminal is one who broke the law and entering the country illegaly is, uh, breaking the law...
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So it is a strech to say that nobody feels that way. But you are correct that if they knowingly enter the US illegally, then they are a criminal. The article is about whether they commit any more crimes after that though.

Yes, some will commit additional crimes, but many don't. I believe we shouldn't treat them as if they will all commit more crimes. But we should punish those who do severely.
 
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Why is it dysfunctional to put limits on who can come? Should as some writers have put forward allow everyone and anyone who can get here to live here?
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It is dysfunctional for several reasons.
1) We need them. Our businesses hire them left and right. Why? Because they need them. Without these workers, our businesses and our economy would tank worse than the depression. Not only will the work be undone, but they won't be spending money in the US. That'll be a double whammy.

2) They want to be here and they want to be productive. Hard working people are exactly what built up the USA to be a great country, and it is exactly what we need to stay on top.

3) The limits often aren't based on truths, on data, or on studies. The limits are usually based on xenophobia. It is easy to blame all your problems on foreiners (that is how Hitler was so popular and how he got into power). But it is wrong to act on irrational fears. Acting on those fears is dysfunctional.

What we need is a system where we can allow more people in to the country. But, if they are non-productive leaches or if they commit crimes, then kick them out. We need to make it a crime to hire illegals. We need to make it a crime to house illegals. If there is no job and no home for them, most of them won't come in illegally. Then open the gates to allow them to come in LEGALLY. If they are productive, they can stay. I'll welcome them with open arms because that hard-working group is exactly what America needs.

We need a system to sort the good from the bad. Our current system of arbitrary number restrictions based on fear doesn't work.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
We need a system to sort the good from the bad. Our current system of arbitrary number restrictions based on fear doesn't work.
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There is no bad, you're just being a Xenophobe. Let them all in!

Invite all the drug dealers, Felons, Islamic Supremacists in the world into our country, there?s nothing to fear but fear itself and bigots who feel this fear. You know, like those people who feel the drunk illegal drivers running them over and killing them. Or the thousands raped and murdered every year by illegals. They had nothing to fear but fear, according to you.

3) The limits often aren't based on truths, on data, or on studies. The limits are usually based on xenophobia. It is easy to blame all your problems on foreiners (that is how Hitler was so popular and how he got into power). But it is wrong to act on irrational fears. Acting on those fears is dysfunctional.
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:|
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Why is it dysfunctional to put limits on who can come? Should as some writers have put forward allow everyone and anyone who can get here to live here?
Click to expand...
It is dysfunctional for several reasons.
1) We need them. Our businesses hire them left and right. Why? Because they need them. Without these workers, our businesses and our economy would tank worse than the depression. Not only will the work be undone, but they won't be spending money in the US. That'll be a double whammy.

2) They want to be here and they want to be productive. Hard working people are exactly what built up the USA to be a great country, and it is exactly what we need to stay on top.

3) The limits often aren't based on truths, on data, or on studies. The limits are usually based on xenophobia. It is easy to blame all your problems on foreiners (that is how Hitler was so popular and how he got into power). But it is wrong to act on irrational fears. Acting on those fears is dysfunctional.

What we need is a system where we can allow more people in to the country. But, if they are non-productive leaches or if they commit crimes, then kick them out. We need to make it a crime to hire illegals. We need to make it a crime to house illegals. If there is no job and no home for them, most of them won't come in illegally. Then open the gates to allow them to come in LEGALLY. If they are productive, they can stay. I'll welcome them with open arms because that hard-working group is exactly what America needs.

We need a system to sort the good from the bad. Our current system of arbitrary number restrictions based on fear doesn't work.
Click to expand...

You lost all credibility when you brought up Hitler.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
There is a situation where that title does make sense.

Suppose a young mother illegally enters the country, illegally bringing her infant with her. The infant grows up in the US, and only knows the US. That child has basically lived his/her whole life here and is basically an American (knowing the culture, laws, language, etc).

Yet, that child, who never committed a crime in his/her life is an "illegal".

Many illegals have never committed a crime in their life (someone else committed the crime by bringing them in).
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My father was a white collar thief, he embezzled and left me tens of millions of dollars. I've lived my whole life being wealthy, that's all I know. I didn't commit the crime, so I deserve to keep that money, right?
 
Originally posted by: dullard
We need a system to sort the good from the bad. Our current system of arbitrary number restrictions based on fear doesn't work.
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Just FYI we do. If someone goes through the LEGAL immigration route, not only are they put through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof, or some equivelant from their home country.

Not sure if you knew that. Criminal record = no entry.
 
Illegal != wrong

I don't like illegal immigrants, they should go through the process so that they're real citizens if they want it so badly.

But that does not make them bad people who don't deserve basic human rights.
 
The whole thing is so cynical on behalf of Republicans. Convenient how just when the housing boom is over and we don't need the cheap labor anymore, all of the sudden it's time to clamp down on illegal immigration. Surely it's just a coincidence 😀
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole thing is so cynical on behalf of Republicans. Convenient how just when the housing boom is over and we don't need the cheap labor anymore, all of the sudden it's time to clamp down on illegal immigration. Surely it's just a coincidence 😀
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not....

 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Why is it dysfunctional to put limits on who can come? Should as some writers have put forward allow everyone and anyone who can get here to live here?
Click to expand...
It is dysfunctional for several reasons.
1) We need them. Our businesses hire them left and right. Why? Because they need them. Without these workers, our businesses and our economy would tank worse than the depression. Not only will the work be undone, but they won't be spending money in the US. That'll be a double whammy.
Click to expand...

This is what a lot of people ignore. People complain about both outsourcing and immigration. We either allow the immigrants to come here and lower the average wage or the businesses move to where the average wage is much lower. At least with allowing immigrants in, the immigrants will be spending the money in this country.

I personally think it needs to be made easier to get into this country legally. It takes years and is bloody expensive to get here legally. There should be a fast track process for educated immigrants. Obviously we shouldn't be allowing immigrants in who have been convicted of violent crimes but many illegals haven't committed a violent crime.

We could also slow the amount of immigration by eliminating agricultural subsidies. They should be exporting a lot more agricultural products to us but can't because of our subsidies. Without those the agricultural sector in Mexico would where many of the illegals are coming from would be more attractive due to higher wages.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole thing is so cynical on behalf of Republicans. Convenient how just when the housing boom is over and we don't need the cheap labor anymore, all of the sudden it's time to clamp down on illegal immigration. Surely it's just a coincidence 😀
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uhh, actually I'm pretty damn sure that the immigration problem surfaced more than a year ago - long before the bottom fell out on sub-prime mortgages, and other housing issues.

oh, and I'm also damn sure that the concerns over illegal immigration cross over every political line, as both Dems and Republicans are outraged by the growing problem and the governments inaction.

Senseamp 2007 - now with 100% more tinfoil!!
 
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