Illegal Aliens get in-state University tuition in California....

[theflyingpig]

Japan WTF?

Probably not smart enough to get a proper education in Japan. The standards there are much higher. Better to ship the idiots out to the US than to burden the Japanese system with the unworthy. Everyone knows this.

 

[theflyingpig]

And if you go to their country illegally you get lower priced college tuition too, right?

No, you get murdered.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

The illegals that are trying to get through college aren't those that hop over the border and murder your wife, they are the ones who are brought here as children by their parents. It seems awfully harsh to punish them for crimes they did not commit, and they should be allowed some opportunity to correct the situation that they are in. Going to and completing college with all the disadvantages of being in the country illegally sure makes it sound like they would really like to be productive members of American society.

That said, I'm not sure about my opinion on whether or not they should be receiving in-state tuition. Perhaps if they could prove that they and/or their parents have been paying CA taxes.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

i agree with dr.pizza. these people are highly motivated and are doing everything they can to make a better life for themselves, with no financial help besides the benefit they get for living and working in their state that anyone else can also get. seems pretty damn american to me. why wouldn't you want such people here? i'm glad this is happening.

 

[foghorn67]

The illegals that are trying to get through college aren't those that hop over the border and murder your wife, they are the ones who are brought here as children by their parents. It seems awfully harsh to punish them for crimes they did not commit, and they should be allowed some opportunity to correct the situation that they are in. Going to and completing college with all the disadvantages of being in the country illegally sure makes it sound like they would really like to be productive members of American society.

That said, I'm not sure about my opinion on whether or not they should be receiving in-state tuition. Perhaps if they could prove that they and/or their parents have been paying CA taxes.

This.

 

[0roo0roo]

university is heavily subsidized.
increasing student fees for legal citzens is already insane.
illegals do not deserve the privilege.... goddamned california.

 

[Ninjahedge]

They are not productive. They cost society many times more than they contribute.

BS.

Serious BS on that one.

The only thing they EVER cost moe on is Health Care when they come in after NOT coming in for months because they are illegal. They come in with a sickness or illness that could have been handled with $100 of pennicillin, but since they were scared of people like you, they waited until their relatives had to drag their non-functioning body into the emergency room, costing us thousands in Medicare costs.


But even still, he was probably working in a field because our spoiled "legals" can't work for anything less than $10 an hour or they will not have their cell phones or I-pods.

OK, maybe that was an exaggeration, but the fact is WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO WORK THE HARD UNAPPRECIATED JOBS.

Instead of looking at the hispanics working the tables and taking out the garbage, ask why they are the only ones doing it. Instead of looking at the guys coming across the border to work in an illegal underpaid position as a crop picker, ask why there aren't more "native" Texans doing the same thing.

If the work was not there, if we did not demand 99 cent iceberg lettuce, then maybe there would be no void, no demand for them. If there was no demand, there would be no jobs and there would be NO MONEY. These guys do not come to the states for the scenic vistas.


As for these guys taking tuition money, that is a hard one. As a white male from a middle class family, I was eligable for NOTHING. For some reason they think they have enough white males in engineering and feel that if you want such an over-educated, under-paid, under-appreciated job you can pay $25K a year like all the other white boys.

Or they can just reject you from the start like half the asian males that apply, but that is another story.

But if these guys are willing to come in, to WORK TO GET A DEGREE IN SOMETHING USEFUL, and then APPLY THAT once they get out, I am all for it.

You are NOT going to stop the immigration wave by being paranoid about it. So if you can't stop it, the best way is to make the wave be an asset rather than a liability.

Make these crop pickers teach their kids to work hard and move up in society (like many of the Chinese and Korean immigrants I have seen that now earn more than their parents ever dreamed and/or run their own buisnesses).

You simply force them to run and hide all the time, all you end up with is a bunch of resentful potato peelers.

 

[Ninjahedge]

The only other thing to remember is this.

How much of the illegals income is documented. You start looking at the numbers and every single report says "estimated".

Why?

THEY ARE NOT DOCUMENTED!!! How the hell do you know how much money they contribute if tehy are not registered? If they are using illegal/fake SS#'s? If their employer is not stating everything they are paying them and who is or isn't on the books?

These guys do not file tax returns! If they did, at that income, they would get everything back! They would get free (or low cost) housing! Where do these $$ costs come from?

If you start looking through and see that the money is going to medical care, then your problem is not the immigrants themselves.


Guys, the problem is simple. We want cheap shit. We are not willing to WORK for shit.

THEY ARE and they give us the cheap shit we demand.

If ALL OF YOU go out and buy from local farms with 100% legal workforces and buy your Iceberg lettuce for $1.99 a head (because of minimum wage requirements and other things) maybe we could start handling thuis immigration flow.

But with Wal-Mart et all being so popular, good luck.

Everybody wants what they want without having to do a god damn thing for it.

 

[PimpJuice]

Who is "they" that you're referring to. Not all illegal aliens are unproductive. The unproductive ones - there's no way that they can afford the tuition. (There is ZERO financial aid for illegal aliens.) It's the productive ones that want to go to college. Let them. Let's keep them. And for every one we keep, how about we find an unproductive American and ship him/her to Mexico instead?

The majority of illegals are unproductive and leech off taxpayers. Free healthcare, free public schooling, etc...

I know you're defending illegals but there are lots of numbers showing they take more than they give which is true about a lot of Americans, but thats the difference........THEY'RE NOT AMERICANS.

 

[PimpJuice]

Until the entire globe is 100% free, I see living in the USA as a right anyone should have. Freedom should be given away. Those who argue otherwise have no conception of it. Easily the best part of this whole debate is that the most ignorant people claim to be the greatest patriots. You think this country is yours. Blow yourself up on next July 4th, or sooner. AMERICA IS FOR EVERYBODY!

You are a fucking moron.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I know you're defending illegals but there are lots of numbers showing they take more than they give which is true about a lot of Americans, but thats the difference........THEY'RE NOT AMERICANS.

Please link the numbers.

Like I said, a lot of that is just crap being thrown around by a bunch of politico monkeys to get people pissed off about something that does not effect 95% of the country (not the immigrants themselves, but the false image that they are somehow bankrupting us).

Two things need to be taken into account. If they are illegal and many are off the books, how are these numbers obtained? By honest buisnessmen that want to tell you that they pay their field hands $2 an hour? From the electrician that picks up 4 guys at the corner for $100 to help him lay wire in a new development?

The second thing is simple. Without them your daily life would cost more. Some people more than others (ones who use them for lawn care and car washing, for example). ALL of us would pay higher cost for groceries, produce especially, and many services like restaurant food...

So there is a problem with immigration, but not in the way some lawmakers and pundits would have you believe. They are a RESOURCE. As insulting as it may sound, you do not treat your workhorses bad. You keep them well fed and in good health. You make sure they are happy, but not overfed and fat. You do not beat them, or hide them in the closet for fear of having to pay taxes on them.

We are abusing them, but compared to what many have back "home" it is still better, with a chance that their offspring could go on to be more.

So the question is not how we can close our borders to an imaginary enemy, but how to make it so that this resource is used properly and that we ALL benefit from it.

When Americans are willing to pay, and I mean ALL AMERICANS, 2x to 3x more for their produce, OR go work out in a field all day for less than minimum wage with no benefits, then we will always have this happening.



As for the education? That is only tough one way. Like I said before, I was eligable for NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH!

Since I was not in any special group, somehow my family was thought to "own" everything. So, despite my "merit" I received no "Scholarship". Did this make me mad? Yes. But that is no reason to say that CA is being idiotic for offering illegals tuition.

It all depends on the case. If, as others have mentioned, that this is the 3 year japanese student that cannot graduate because they have been here w/o visa... well, was he going for Engineering? Was he going for a degree we could use? Or was he on a LA degree? We can use more scientists, but hell if we need more people who can quote Byron on a status report.

They come in Illegal, they get a degree we can use, we require them to stay, and be taxed, for X years (outside of extroadinary circumstance like family hardship) before they can claim their degree certification and be eligable for citizenship...

 

[bfdd]

Illegal immigrants should be given nothing and should be treated poorly because they are not supposed to be here. I cannot be sympathetic to illegals when I know many legal immigrants and how much bullshit they had to go through to get here because they actually wanted to become Americans and contribute to American society. While on a personal level I have good experiences with illegal aliens, I've even worked shoulder to shoulder with them, they do not deserve to be here they've disrespected us by being here and they deserve nothing of ours.

If we keep giving, they'll keep coming. We need to do whatever it takes to stem their flow here, punish the ones that are here and then actually have some comprehensive immigration reform that would make it easier for these kinds of workers to come and work here IF THEY WANT TO BECOME CITIZENS.

 

[Ninjahedge]

bfdd, all you have to do is look at it from their perspective.

If it is hard to get in legally, with no guarantee, and a LONG waiting list, why do it?

Also, the misinformation and bureaucratic BS is huge. There are only a few that abuse this.

What we should worry about more than the first generation of fence hoppers is the 2nd or 3rd. We have more dead-weight from the successive generations that did not inherit the same work ethic of the parents or ancestors than we do from the ones that came across to try to give their kids more.


Maybe what we need is NOT to take everything away, but encourage hard work and productivity. What incentive is it for the grandkid to work if he gets less money when he does? Gee, I can work my ass of at McD's and get a free McRib for lunch or I can sit at home at my families hovel and get paid more doing nothing.

Our system is broken. It needs to be fixed, not raised.

 

[KIAman]

Ninjahedge, you have a good heart and good sense.

What you are not seeing is that the public education system has been funded and subsisized from years of citizen taxes.

People are getting angry at the fact that the illegals are "breaking the law" and "getting away with it." They are "not contributing to the pool" but are "taking benefits from the pool."

What you argue is that we (as a country) should promote hard work ethics and productivity, even if people are illegal immigrants. I agree with you on that part and it's very easy to say. What's impossible is to differentiate the ones who care and those that don't.

Laws are black and white, the interpretation of them allow grey areas. Because it is nearly impossible to determine those illegals that strive for the American Dream, and those that simply want to take advantage of the system, the laws should protect the common denominator, the citizens.

In California's case, the entire battle is a fight between state and federal laws. Feds want the power to control immigration but the states suffer from the lack of fed execution. In this case, if it were the feds that subsidizes in state schools, then it wouldn't hurt as much.

California is broke and bankrupt. We made tough choices in cutting money which affected a lot of citizens. This ruling is like a punch in the face for all those legitimate citizens that were asked (or forced) to make that sacrifice.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Ninjahedge, you have a good heart and good sense.

What you are not seeing is that the public education system has been funded and subsisized from years of citizen taxes.

People are getting angry at the fact that the illegals are "breaking the law" and "getting away with it." They are "not contributing to the pool" but are "taking benefits from the pool."

What you argue is that we (as a country) should promote hard work ethics and productivity, even if people are illegal immigrants. I agree with you on that part and it's very easy to say. What's impossible is to differentiate the ones who care and those that don't.

Laws are black and white, the interpretation of them allow grey areas. Because it is nearly impossible to determine those illegals that strive for the American Dream, and those that simply want to take advantage of the system, the laws should protect the common denominator, the citizens.

In California's case, the entire battle is a fight between state and federal laws. Feds want the power to control immigration but the states suffer from the lack of fed execution. In this case, if it were the feds that subsidizes in state schools, then it wouldn't hurt as much.

California is broke and bankrupt. We made tough choices in cutting money which affected a lot of citizens. This ruling is like a punch in the face for all those legitimate citizens that were asked (or forced) to make that sacrifice.

The ruling is correct under California law.

When the laws were passed, people that approved it may not have considered all the repercussions of what was being proposed.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Cali has the problem of having too many programs that help w/o proper integration. That and the fact that CA (along with probably a half dozen other Blues) pay for most of the nations expenses. (NY being the #1).

The main problem we have with this story is that we are all glomming the entire mass of illegals into one pot.

How many of these guys are border jumpers and how many are ones that simply let their visa expire?

We need to delineate the particular violations and not act on them as if they were all one and the same.

The other key I mentioned is simple. If they get an education here, they should be required to either STAY here and repay some of what has been granted (through spending and taxes) or simply pay-up. Most people do not go to college simply to learn, they also go there to get the certificate saying that they did, indeed, learn something.

Not granting this, or providing it on probationary status might be a way to keep more skilled professionals in house and increase our nations productivity.



Now, as for the border jumpers, that is more difficult, but again we have to find out what is the biggest expense/hardship.

I believe the two biggest would be a swamping of the elemantary schools (ESL should not be the biggest class) and health care.

Like I said, the main problem with HC is not providing it, but the fact that since these people are illegal, even though they CAN get medical care, they don't until it is REALLY REALLY needed. Fixing a serious injury or sickness costs WAY more money than simply coming in once a year for a checkup.

I am not talking free cancer surgery, but it is a shame that we see that the expense can be REDUCED much more easily than it can ever be eliminated. So reduce it first, THEN look for a way to eliminate, or at least control it further.

The ESL? We seriously need to have a different system for migrant labor. Make work visas much more readily available so that they can be tracked. Fid a way to do this WITHOUT costing the farmers so much that our econmy tanks, but at the same time start to get back a bit from the company proceeds to go toward the expenses that are imbued upon us from their illegal (now legal temporary) workforce.

We then need some seperate schoold. Call them "accelerated assimilation schools" or something like that. No, not like slave schools, just ones that focus on teaching some of the basics, but concentrating on teaching ESL and integrating these guys into the mainstream.

An educational acceleration lane for our own piss poor educational system.


None of this is easy, but the problem is that NONE of the easy solutions will work. All the wall builders and prohibitionists that want to forbid everything will only cause weird distortions in our system that will never achieve the goals they seek. Unfortunately, the scattershot methods that the liberal groups take aslo do not work for various reasons. Limited scope, overly optimistic goals and premises, or selective partisan compromises that effectively neuters the program and what it was designed for.

We need a coordinated effort to find the root causes for these deficiencies and imbalances and QUICKLY start working to correct ALL of them before the situation changes and renders the solution ineffective.

The problem is, with our limited depth and snails-pace decision-by-comittee legislation nothing ever gets done to the scope, or in the time it is needed.


Do I have the solutions? No. All I know is that ALL the comments I hear here and elsewhere tend to drift into two opposing fronts that solve nothing.

Sometimes the answer is not a compromise. Sometimes the problem is not defined through debate. Sometimes it is just right there in front of you and nobody wants to get on their knees to pick up that steaming turd and deal with it. (And sure as hell nobody volunteers to walk the damn dog in the first place!)

 

[DrPizza]

The majority of illegals are unproductive and leech off taxpayers. Free healthcare, free public schooling, etc...

I know you're defending illegals but there are lots of numbers showing they take more than they give which is true about a lot of Americans, but thats the difference........THEY'RE NOT AMERICANS.

You're still missing the point. If even 99 out of 100 illegals take more than they give, those 99 will not be the ones attending the public universities. To attend the public universities, they have to pay out of their own pockets. There's no financial aid. There are no federal loans, etc. for illegal immigrants. Unless you're suggesting that there are a bunch of illegal immigrants who were rich prior to coming to the US, then they're getting their money somehow. Somehow, I have a feeling that they're not robbing houses, selling drugs, etc., just so they can go to college. The people who are going to college would then constitute that 1 out of 100 illegals who aren't taking more than they give.

Tuition isn't cheap. They would have to be either making a pretty significant salary (i.e. forged SS numbers, thus they ARE paying into the system) else they would have had to have been working here for quite a few years and saving their extra income for future college expenses. THOSE are the kinds of people we want here.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You're still missing the point. If even 99 out of 100 illegals take more than they give, those 99 will not be the ones attending the public universities. To attend the public universities, they have to pay out of their own pockets. There's no financial aid. There are no federal loans, etc. for illegal immigrants. Unless you're suggesting that there are a bunch of illegal immigrants who were rich prior to coming to the US, then they're getting their money somehow. Somehow, I have a feeling that they're not robbing houses, selling drugs, etc., just so they can go to college. The people who are going to college would then constitute that 1 out of 100 illegals who aren't taking more than they give.

Tuition isn't cheap. They would have to be either making a pretty significant salary (i.e. forged SS numbers, thus they ARE paying into the system) else they would have had to have been working here for quite a few years and saving their extra income for future college expenses. THOSE are the kinds of people we want here.

Those illegals that want to enter the higher educational school system and are able to complete deserve kudos for doing what a majority of HS students are unable to do.

By paying full educatinosal cost (out of state), they are not taking up an in-state tuition slot.
They should not be provided with special financing while attending school, but I can see that upon completion (graduation), they are granted an US resident visa with no strings attached if they obtain employment (not H1B) within the country. They would also be elgible to serve in the Armed Forces as an officer.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Basically, you are welcome to come in and get educated so long as you stay and contribute afterwards......

 

[SphinxnihpS]

You are a fucking moron.

You're not an American.

Go look up how and why this country was founded and the ideals it is based on. I'll save you the time. This is the place for everyone that doesn't like where they are to come and be free. Your idea of freedom is seriously fucked.

 

[911paramedic]

You're not an American.

Go look up how and why this country was founded and the ideals it is based on. I'll save you the time. This is the place for everyone that doesn't like where they are to come and be free. Your idea of freedom is seriously fucked.

True. But you can't just walk across the border and say, "Oh hai!" and be a citizen. (Well, that used to be the case.)

 

[SphinxnihpS]

True. But you can't just walk across the border and say, "Oh hai!" and be a citizen. (Well, that used to be the case.)

Why not?

 

[halik]

LOLCalifornia

 

[nick1985]

Why not?

How many people can America sustain? Would you let the entire central/south american population in? Whats the limit for you?

 

[KingGheedora]

yup...i posted in the other thread kinda related to this one last week that illegals cost this country $130B and they pay in $30B, so that leaves the remaining $100B to the US tax payers...

If you are going to make this argument, you also need to factor this in, which will reduce the $100B figure further, though to what level I have no idea:

The reduced wages illegals earn directly benefit businesses they work for (both big and small), who in turn pay taxes to the state and Fed.