I'll rather live in danger with liberty than live safely without it.

[LunarRay]

You do realize though your fear is unwarranted? You have a greater risk of being involved in something dangerous just by walking down the street?

Could you at least respect that fact that your fear is not based on logic, but on a psychological defect on your own part and not choose to subject me to your own OCD by as a voter, forcing the TSA to do their Orwellian procedure on me?

A neurosis is what you address, I presume. And my situation vis a vis flying is to do with the probabilities of that situation occurring. I figure there are oh... over 10 million to one that I'd be on an aircraft targeted by some terrorist at any point in time that I'd be traveling (I suppose that would be how many flights between events). Very long odds indeed! But they fall within my discerned confidence level that exceeds my threshold for avoidance.

My vote is not to do with what I want for me but, rather, what I feel is my duty to insure Liberty by appropriate voting for that... IOW, I will avoid whilst you should be free to choose what you'd like to do... avoid or partake of the air flight sans all the Liberty violations this program forces... I think we as Americans ought to always ensure Liberty regardless of any other factor...
Someone once said (hehehehe) the odds of being on an aircraft that has a passenger with a terrorist agenda - bomb -are over a million to one... I'd say consider what they'd be if there were two separate people with an agenda - bomb... A trillion to one... more?... Ergo, bring a bomb...

 

[Moonbeam]

I think most of the concern about being patted down is from men wearing girl's underwear.

 

[LunarRay]

I think most of the concern about being patted down is from men wearing girl's underwear.

Given that one about to take an air line ride knows what is about to occur regarding safety procedures... and would opt to not become all flimsy like IF they had that concern... Ergo, I'd have to assume that you've linked Girls underware and those who are concerned over this issue... heheheheh

 

[JMapleton]

avoid or partake of the air flight sans all the Liberty violations this program forces...

Imagine going to Sea World and because you're too afraid to swim in the pool, you go to the pool management, complain, and force the park to make the pool no deeper than 4 feet and force everyone to wear those inflatable tubes on their arms.....and sunscreen....just in case. You're that guy.

You have no right to override the system to suit your mental defects.

I turn the table on you, if YOU do not like flying, or feel unsafe. Do not fly.

Your fear will NOT save you. It only destroys us all, taking your whole country down with your own cowardly cries, forcing us all to live in fear over some guy from some nowhere country, who has a one in a million chance of being on an airplane and probably another one in a million chance of actually doing anything.

I'd rather die than walk in fear because of some terrorist, unlike yourself you cowardly puss.

The terrorists won the war against you but they didn't win against me.

I kept shopping after 9/11. I didn't live in fear. I didn't dwell in my anger. I didn't change my plans. I didn't feel sorry for my country. I didn't resort to hating an entire race. I didn't resort to name calling and racist jokes. I mourned those lost. And then I kept being me. That's why the terrorists didn't win against me.

You're afraid of dying? You've already killed off the original "you," if live in this body of fear. Subjecting old ladies, suburban house wives, and middle aged accountants to get their crotch felt up so instead of you having a one in a million chance of dying, maybe you have a 1 and a quarter million chance of dying.

You sold your share of American ideals because you're scared.

 

[LunarRay]

Imagine going to Sea World and because you're too afraid to swim in the pool, you go to the pool management, complain, and force the park to make the pool no deeper than 4 feet and force everyone to wear those inflatable tubes on their arms.....and sunscreen....just in case. You're that guy.

You read but you don't comprehend...

You have no right to override the system to suit your mental defects.

Why not? I am a citizen. Why can't I vote as I see fit regardless of my belief? Is there some sanity test we've to be subjected to in order to vote or is that what some subjective thinkers would cast upon those whose view is different?

I turn the table on you, if YOU do not like flying, or feel unsafe. Do not fly.

I don't fly! And I don't support TSA nor any restriction on Liberty. I'd rather take what ever risks I'm willing to take while having all my Liberties intact. And avoid what risks I choose to avoid... while offering you that same capacity.

Your fear will NOT save you. It only destroys us all, taking your whole country down with your own cowardly cries, forcing us all to live in fear over some guy from some nowhere country, who has a one in a million chance of being on an airplane and probably another one in a million chance of actually doing anything.

I would suggest you read my writings a bit slower... and maybe do so without a bias that is not supported by the content of my proffer.

I'd rather die than walk in fear because of some terrorist, unlike yourself you cowardly puss.

Chuck you farley, you ain't so mucking futch... go out on your own jack porch and back off....:awe:

Reread and become edified...

The terrorists won the war against you but they didn't win against me.

Ah.. well... one thing for certain... Man cannot put in what God left out.

I kept shopping after 9/11. I didn't live in fear. I didn't dwell in my anger. I didn't change my plans. I didn't feel sorry for my country. I didn't resort to hating an entire race. I didn't resort to name calling and racist jokes. I mourned those lost. And then I kept being me. That's why the terrorists didn't win against me.

Here we are in the top of the 2nd and you've not even got up to bat yet...
The terrorists won when they caused my Liberty to be squished even a bit... It is all about perspective. That you go shopping has not to do with what terrorism is all about... I doubt a chimp in a tree cares much about it all until it takes his banana.

You're afraid of dying? You've already killed off the original "you," if live in this body of fear. Subjecting old ladies, suburban house wives, and middle aged accountants to get their crotch felt up so instead of you having a one in a million chance of dying, maybe you have a 1 and a quarter million chance of dying.

Hehehehehehehe, Is that so?

You sold your share of American ideals because you're a coward.

Biggest coward you can find is me... yup! I'm also afraid of snakes and spiders and um.... Malted milk when it has set too long and the dang thing loses its bubbles...

I mean none of this as an insult. My observation is that you are a coward. I do not resort to insults, only observations.

And you end on such a nice note! I am a paroxysm of myrth atm...
But I must advise you that your observations, however inappropriate, do induce you to attempt insult... but don't worry, you can't insult me.

Hehehehehehehehehe

 

[Moonbeam]

Now look here, LunarRay, there is nothing that cheeses off a Gorilla doing the tree branch smash than some joker who laughs at the hoots and grunts. You need to be a little more differential to those covered in manly hair. The freedom JM may be jealously guarding from the TSA is that he can't fly without wearing Depends.

 

[nick1985]

Yet you regularly post anti-gun bullshit (most of which is shown to be on the verge of outright lies) to support strict measures which would restrict essential liberties as explicitly stated in the Constitution.

Because Craig is a joke. He claims to uphold civil liberties, but he supports the squelching of any civil liberties that he doesn't agree with.

 

[zsdersw]

Policing is sacrificing liberty for safety.

Jesus, do I have to spell everything out for you idiots?

Police action to ensure that people are free to the extent that they don't impede others' right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is all that's required. Anything more is an unjustified reduction in everyone's liberties.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

But I will say it seems to me that we are irrational about terrorist threats in our concern about airplanes.

Any one terrorist can easily get a gun and go to an unsecured school and kill many children in an act as horrific as downing a plane.

I have to agree with you here. I can think of many, many ways a terrorist organization could strike the US and inflict far more damage from both an economic and psychological perspective than with using airplanes. Thank god none of them have done it yet.

 

[LunarRay]

Now look here, LunarRay, there is nothing that cheeses off a Gorilla doing the tree branch smash than some joker who laughs at the hoots and grunts. You need to be a little more differential to those covered in manly hair. The freedom JM may be jealously guarding from the TSA is that he can't fly without wearing Depends.

The Chimp hehehehehehe thinks he's effective, I'll bet. The Leopard probably looks up at all the chatter going on and only wonders which of them will fall and become dinner...

It seems to me that when the TSA provides their security devices to the traveling public they offset the fear many have about the objectives of the bad guys. Some of our brave citizens would rather not be subjected to the 'screeching' of the fearsome nor the claws of the TSA but it is what it is.. A reaction to a real and present danger coupled with the fear of the traveling population in general.

My friend above suggests 'don't fly'... which ought to be applied both ways... If society wants safety at the expense of what they call Liberty so be it... IF not, so be it. Either way I'm not going to fly... but given the chance to be amused at the Chimp flapping his arms I will... they are quite cute creatures although a noisy bunch.


Someone said, and I agree: You can't teach a pig to fly! It does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig...

 

[Moonbeam]

The Chimp hehehehehehe thinks he's effective, I'll bet. The Leopard probably looks up at all the chatter going on and only wonders which of them will fall and become dinner...

It seems to me that when the TSA provides their security devices to the traveling public they offset the fear many have about the objectives of the bad guys. Some of our brave citizens would rather not be subjected to the 'screeching' of the fearsome nor the claws of the TSA but it is what it is.. A reaction to a real and present danger coupled with the fear of the traveling population in general.

My friend above suggests 'don't fly'... which ought to be applied both ways... If society wants safety at the expense of what they call Liberty so be it... IF not, so be it. Either way I'm not going to fly... but given the chance to be amused at the Chimp flapping his arms I will... they are quite cute creatures although a noisy bunch.


Someone said, and I agree: You can't teach a pig to fly! It does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig...

What do you bet that grinning ape buckles his seat belt up on take off and landing just like the rest of the trained sheep. But just wait till the chimps run out of things to protest. I'm sure it's on a list somewhere of things to beat your breast about. One thing I am sure of. We will never lose the right to be idiots.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Funny how much Israel is brought up. Shitty little country with how many measly airports? The way they treat Arabs/Muslims I wouldn't be surprised if they are just flat out denied from airline service.

Its good to see Americans coming out of the fog that was Bush's deliberate terror over the country. But I'm willing to bet this country doesn't have the balls to be "free" and one successful terror attack will have them screaming at the top of their longs why didnt the government keep me safe?!

As for TSA I'm willing to go all the way down to underwear and be issued a TSA jumpsuit as I travel the air. We've already seen bombs in underwear, shoes, and mail cargo. Its only a matter of time before planes start falling out of the sky again. I'm not dying because of some Ben Franklin quote.

Velcom to zee Fatherland.

So you'd rather be a spineless chicken shit that is told what to do and when to do it by people that are supposed to be working FOR you. Not AGAINST you.
I'm glad you accept being treated like a criminal, but the rest of us that believe that we are innocent until proven guilty like our freedoms.

I for one won't fly anymore not because of fear of terrorists, well the militant radical islamic kind, but because I will not allow a government employee to photograph me nude, or run their hands on my body.
I'll honestly say if I were the father of the boy in the youtube video that got searched I would have killed the TSA agent for touching my child.

 

[Moonbeam]

JL swings into action.

 

[Darwin333]

I'm not too concerned about the security on a boat or train... I can swim and walk.. but, I can't fly. It is all about being waaaaaaaay up in the air and have something go boom... makes the plane visit the ground rather unplanned like. I drive too and there are more death from that than flying but of course there are more cars about too...


I read somewhere that the odds of being eaten by a great white shark are about the same as being terminated by a terrorist event in an aircraft... I don't go swiming either... and my Pacific Aquarium is not more than 100' to my West...

Do you bathe? That is also more dangerous than terrorists in the US.

 

[Darwin333]

I have to agree with you here. I can think of many, many ways a terrorist organization could strike the US and inflict far more damage from both an economic and psychological perspective than with using airplanes. Thank god none of them have done it yet.

I think they are waiting until the finish reaping the benefits of their last attack before they launch a new one.

Why attack something else and switch attention when you can just sit back and laugh your ass off that 10 years later your attack is still working amazingly well at "terrorizing" people.

 

[bamacre]

JL swings into action.

Moonbeam, correct me if my memory fails me, but I seem to recall several years ago a great big bunch of apes gathered at this very spot, yelling and beating their chests. IIRC, one was armed with macros and emoticons, and singing ape-like songs. And I think one of them may have been you, too, flailing your arms, and mad as hell.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonbeam, correct me if my memory fails me, but I seem to recall several years ago a great big bunch of apes gathered at this very spot, yelling and beating their chests. IIRC, one was armed with macros and emoticons, and singing ape-like songs. And I think one of them may have been you, too, flailing your arms, and mad as hell.

I have a rule never to accuse anybody of anything I haven't just done or am about to. So while I am sure you are probably right, I don't know what in particular you refer to. Maybe Harvey with his macros, but me, well who can say. I do know that the terrorists won and Americans would sell their souls for the feeling of safety. That however, does not make overreacting to insanity sane. You don't throw gas on a flame especially when folk want to burn the fire department down.

Your aim is consistency of principles I think whereas I aim to make folk see.

 

[Siddhartha]

I'd like to say, in specially regards to recent TSA pat downs and x ray scanners, which are intrusive and un-American, I'd rather fly on an airplane with people who could potentially be dangerous and not be violated than to have my body violated and intruded upon and fly in safety.

Anyone who would give up their freedom for this "pretend" measure of safety is a coward and is the reason thousands of Americans each and every day and being violated and treated like cattle.

People have died to protect our freedom and anyone who allows our politicians to violate their own constituents spitting on their sacrifice.

This is what terrorists want. They want us to live in fear and they want our country to fall from the inside. This is what's happening and you're letting it.

Does ANYONE agree?

Where do you draw the line in terms of air port\air craft security screening? Do you support any kind of screening?

 

[Moonbeam]

Do you bathe? That is also more dangerous than terrorists in the US.

Sort of reminds me of the story of the guy who fell through his glass shower door, sort of like falling out of an airplane onto a greenhouse.

 

[Moonbeam]

Where do you draw the line in terms of air port\air craft security screening? Do you support any kind of screening?

I imagine he trumpets the arrival of the peanuts.

 

[LunarRay]

Do you bathe? That is also more dangerous than terrorists in the US.

Well.... Not with terrorists in the tub with me... AND, I've my 80 lb Pit bull to protect me... my two Silkies bark a lot but like the chimp they're not effective in the objective I envision.

In any event, your assurance somehow does not give the warm and fuzzies that the folks who demand security want.
As I've said repeatedly, I support the absence of restrictive measures beyond that which used to be in place... Do what they want with the baggage and the like but intrusive measures are a bit beyond what I'd support... I don't have an ape in this fight but I will always default to the Freedom notion...

I'm also cognizant of the economics of all this and the recent article in CNN regarding the agenda AQ is currently embarked on... Sorta reverse Reagan/Soviet plan of making them spend and spend and restrict and restrict... They win cuz most folks hear what they fear and fear what they hear and react accordingly... (most folks).

 

[LunarRay]

Your aim is consistency of principles I think whereas I aim to make folk see.

Folks who've lost something - assuming they once had something now lost - look in the most interesting of places to seek its retrieval... often where there is the most light... Not where the lost bit was lost...

Fear blinds folks but beyond that it motivates behavior. The chimps all flaying about in the trees only know to do that... They've not evolved like us humans... Nope! Us humans hide the fear disguised as bravado... Can't be seen to be a limp wrist tulip sniffer..

NYC has finally agreed to pony up 700 million for the responders of 9/11 and there is a bill afoot in Congress that will cost billions more... Can't we just deny it ever happened or maybe simply say it was all Contributary Negligence and reduce the cost of Freedom...

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I agree.

 

[Fern]

I'll rather live in danger with liberty than live safely without it.
-snip-

IMO, the real discussion should focus on the effectiveness of our measures not sloguns like 'giving up liberty for security' etc.

Air travel and airlines play an important role in our economy.

You take away peoples' sense of security, many won't fly. So, just arguing for the cessation of the TSA security protocols isn't a good idea. Leaving air travel/airlines unprotected is just another way to let the terrorists win.

(BTW: airlines will never support this as long as they are sued for every terrorist event. Are you kidding?)

I don't know the true extent of the air traveling public's opposition to these new measures. But if you make traveling unpleasent, difficult, and encumbered by a bunch of delays, particularly if they are not seen as effective, you're back once again to discouraging air travel; the terrorists win again.

Air travel needs to be safe. We need to focus our national attention on how to best acheive this.

Should we be looking for the 'object' or the 'person'? Should we be in a reactive mode whereby we only respond after they try something and then we add new procedures (e.g., Shoe bomber? Ok, now check shoes. Underwear? Ok, now check that.) Or should we be proactive? Should we be 'war gaming' this? Should we do studies on our procedures employed over the last 10 yrs and see what's been effective and what just needlessly adds delays, inconvenience and expense? Are any procedures redundant?

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

IMO, the real discussion should focus on the effectiveness of our measures not sloguns like 'giving up liberty for security' etc.

Air travel and airlines play an important role in our economy.

You take away peoples' sense of security, many won't fly. So, just arguing for the cessation of the TSA security protocols isn't a good idea. Leaving air travel/airlines unprotected is just another way to let the terrorists win.

(BTW: airlines will never support this as long as they are sued for every terrorist event. Are you kidding?)

I don't know the true extent of the air traveling public's opposition to these new measures. But if you make traveling unpleasent, difficult, and encumbered by a bunch of delays, particularly if they are not seen as effective, you're back once again to discouraging air travel; the terrorists win again.

Air travel needs to be safe. We need to focus our national attention on how to best acheive this.

Should we be looking for the 'object' or the 'person'? Should we be in a reactive mode whereby we only respond after they try something and then we add new procedures (e.g., Shoe bomber? Ok, now check shoes. Underwear? Ok, now check that.) Or should we be proactive? Should we be 'war gaming' this? Should we do studies on our procedures employed over the last 10 yrs and see what's been effective and what just needlessly adds delays, inconvenience and expense? Are any procedures redundant?

Fern

If we all had computer chips locked to our DNA embedded in our skin, we could board and pay electronically with every detail of our risk to society calculated by a record of our past deeds. We could call it something creative like the Mark of the Beast.