I'll rather live in danger with liberty than live safely without it.

[JMapleton]

I'd like to say, in specially regards to recent TSA pat downs and x ray scanners, which are intrusive and un-American, I'd rather fly on an airplane with people who could potentially be dangerous and not be violated than to have my body violated and intruded upon and fly in safety.

Anyone who would give up their freedom for this "pretend" measure of safety is a coward and is the reason thousands of Americans each and every day and being violated and treated like cattle.

People have died to protect our freedom and anyone who allows our politicians to violate their own constituents spitting on their sacrifice.

This is what terrorists want. They want us to live in fear and they want our country to fall from the inside. This is what's happening and you're letting it.

Does ANYONE agree?

 

[Craig234]

I'd like to say, in specially regards to recent TSA pat downs and x ray scanners, which are intrusive and un-American, I'd rather fly on an airplane with people who could potentially be dangerous and not be violated than to have my body violated and intruded upon and fly in safety.

Anyone who would give up their freedom for this "pretend" measure of safety is a coward and is the reason thousands of Americans each and every day and being violated and treated like cattle.

People have died to protect our freedom and anyone who allows our politicians to violate their own constituents spitting on their sacrifice.

This is what terrorists want. They want us to live in fear and they want our country to fall from the inside. This is what's happening and you're letting it.

Does ANYONE agree?

I agree - to a point on the principle. I think I support more than even most here the idea of 'liberty above reduced rights' - even if a lot of topics here I disagree on on the side of 'safety', not because of disagreeing with that, but because the topics seem to me to be ones that the tradeoff is far in favor of safety.

The actual quote as I've seen it - I haven't confirmed it carefully - is that people who give up "essential" liberties for a 'little safety' deserve neither.

I see no "essential liberties" in driving without using your seat belt that justify the need to not require its use that saves thousands of people's lives a year.

And don't even mention the idiot sociopath social Darwinists claiming these people are ok to get killed.

On the day of 9/11, my reaction was, 'the important thing is that we not do what the terrorists want, and overreact - this is now rights are lost'. I'd add to that the overreaction of 'having to invade' another country, in the case of Iraq being squeezed into the agenda using the emotion of 9/11. I've argued that the risk of terrorist casualties does NOT justify a strong reduction in our freedoms - that they're not so large as to justify it, and should be treated as 'criminal issues' mostly, not starting war.

This so outraged some that a quote saying that they are not such a huge threat to our country as to justify removing fundamental freedoms was put in someone's sig.

Indeed, it seems to me that it's very likely we WILL have an amount of terrorism in our country - amazing we haven't had more yet - that requires us to tolerate to keep freedoms.

It comes down to weighing the freedom versus the benefit, the more compelling the freedom the more unlikely to compromise it.

Things like political freedoms - the ability for the people to oppose corrupt power - are fundamental and it's hard to think of anything to get rid of them - and mostly the right who has supported doing so at times, from McCarthyist anti-liberal purges, to the support of authoritarian infiltration and suppression and even violence against 'subversive groups'. But these same people turn into Henry David Thoreau committing civil disobedience over the 'tyranny' of wearing a seat belt under the law.

The airport measures are a gray area for me. I don't have a real preference now.

But I will say it seems to me that we are irrational about terrorist threats in our concern about airplanes.

Any one terrorist can easily get a gun and go to an unsecured school and kill many children in an act as horrific as downing a plane.

 

[boomerang]

 

[dmcowen674]

I'd like to say, in specially regards to recent TSA pat downs and x ray scanners, which are intrusive and un-American, I'd rather fly on an airplane with people who could potentially be dangerous and not be violated than to have my body violated and intruded upon and fly in safety.

Anyone who would give up their freedom for this "pretend" measure of safety is a coward and is the reason thousands of Americans each and every day and being violated and treated like cattle.

People have died to protect our freedom and anyone who allows our politicians to violate their own constituents spitting on their sacrifice.

This is what terrorists want. They want us to live in fear and they want our country to fall from the inside. This is what's happening and you're letting it.

Does ANYONE agree?

Do you see any of the Politicians that put this into place going through these "screenings"?

It's Official, America is just 1930's Germany all over again.

Yes, the Terrists won.

I said that the day they said we are not going to rebuild the Towers.

 

[Anarchist420]

I would agree with JMapleton, if we actually were trading liberty for security, which isn't possible. Liberty vs security is a false dichetomy.

Liberty IS security.

 

[bamacre]

Do you see any of the Politicians that put this into place going through these "screenings"?

Not yet.

But we all know that won't pass.

 

[PeshakJang]

...

The actual quote as I've seen it - I haven't confirmed it carefully - is that people who give up "essential" liberties for a 'little safety' deserve neither.

...

This so outraged some that a quote saying that they are not such a huge threat to our country as to justify removing fundamental freedoms was put in someone's sig.

Yet you regularly post anti-gun bullshit (most of which is shown to be on the verge of outright lies) to support strict measures which would restrict essential liberties as explicitly stated in the Constitution.

 

[dualsmp]

I'm in agreement with the OP. Everyone takes their chances going out on the highways everyday and ~50,000 people die every year in car accidents. No one is shaking in their boots full of fear afraid to leave the house and go to the grocery store.

You could have a jumbo jet full of 300 people go down every week and it wouldn't come close to how many people die in car accidents. Not saying this it is an acceptable number, but gives some perceptive. Your chances of going down in a plane from a terrorist are extremely slim.

 

[xenolith]

Wait until a terrorist group starts chatting about plans to use their anal cavity to hide a bomb. Get ready for TSA to start giving little children and the elderly body cavity searches.

This is all crazy because this mess could all go away with a simple solution: profiling and bomb sniffing dogs! That is what Israeli commercial airlines use, and how many of their planes have been brought down by terrorists?

But a big, centralized government's incentive isn't about simple solutions, it's all about gaining more control of the public.

 

[NoStateofMind]

That's hilarious and frightening at the same time.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Not yet.

But we all know that won't pass.

Another "loony" idea from the biggest "loon" from the last election.

 

[PottedMeat]

Wait until a terrorist group starts chatting about plans to use their anal cavity to hide a bomb. Get ready for TSA to start giving little children and the elderly body cavity searches.

Someone already tried this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Nayef

According to early and the most recent reports, Al Aseery's older brother had hidden one pound of PETN plastic explosives in his rectum, which security experts described as a novel technique.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

"hey little bro, i'm gonna put these plastic explosives in your ass"

 

[boomerang]

Wait until a terrorist group starts chatting about plans to use their anal cavity to hide a bomb. Get ready for TSA to start giving little children and the elderly body cavity searches.

This is all crazy because this mess could all go away with a simple solution: profiling and bomb sniffing dogs! That is what Israeli commercial airlines use, and how many of their planes have been brought down by terrorists?

But a big, centralized government's incentive isn't about simple solutions, it's all about gaining more control of the public.

But we can't profile because the progressives along with the left get their panties in a wad over it. Political correctness and progressivism is counter-intuitive to what our goals should be which is the most protection for the least cost. When the progressives win, the rest of us lose.

We can't fight our enemy (radical extremists) to win, because that upsets the left. It then becomes more costly and they don't like the expense. You can't make them happy no matter what you do.

We must read those we capture their rights as if they were U.S. citizens. We can only engage the enemy during certain hours of the day. We should try those we capture in civilian courts with counsel provided at taxpayer expense and the insanity goes on and on and on.

Progressivism is the true enemy. We have the ability and the means to bring these conflicts to far swifter ends, but we are hampered by the mindset of a minority who's minds are stuck in adolescence.

The answer is to get them out of power and more or less tell them to get fucked which, BTW, we did earlier this month. They still bleat on as though they didn't get dealt a blow. They're ignoring the directive they were given. Both Obama and Pelosi have been particularly vocal in this regard.

Sometimes to beat an enemy, you have to dispatch another enemy first. That would be the case here. We can let extremists slowly wear us down and bleed us financially, or we can kick the progressives aside and get the job done.

I fully expect we'll take the first path - the wrong one. No reason to change now.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Not yet.

But we all know that won't pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwsdq69AHnw

 

[KlokWyze]

lmao....

 

[wirednuts]

i say anyone that is for the full body scanners and pat downs at airports for civilians should be sentenced to jail for their own safety. its almost impossible to die in jail. its about the safest place on the planet. this might sound funny but im not joking even the slightest.

all of this is EXACTLY what our forefathers fought against, and they SPECIFICALLY said this type of shit will happen again. and that was 250 years ago.

 

[JMapleton]

I see no "essential liberties" in driving without using your seat belt that justify the need to not require its use that saves thousands of people's lives a year.

That quote is actually falsely attributed to Ben Franklin, although I do agree with the quote.

 

[Darwin333]

But we can't profile because the progressives along with the left get their panties in a wad over it. Political correctness and progressivism is counter-intuitive to what our goals should be which is the most protection for the least cost. When the progressives win, the rest of us lose.

We can't fight our enemy (radical extremists) to win, because that upsets the left. It then becomes more costly and they don't like the expense. You can't make them happy no matter what you do.

We must read those we capture their rights as if they were U.S. citizens. We can only engage the enemy during certain hours of the day. We should try those we capture in civilian courts with counsel provided at taxpayer expense and the insanity goes on and on and on.

Progressivism is the true enemy. We have the ability and the means to bring these conflicts to far swifter ends, but we are hampered by the mindset of a minority who's minds are stuck in adolescence.

The answer is to get them out of power and more or less tell them to get fucked which, BTW, we did earlier this month. They still bleat on as though they didn't get dealt a blow. They're ignoring the directive they were given. Both Obama and Pelosi have been particularly vocal in this regard.

Sometimes to beat an enemy, you have to dispatch another enemy first. That would be the case here. We can let extremists slowly wear us down and bleed us financially, or we can kick the progressives aside and get the job done.

I fully expect we'll take the first path - the wrong one. No reason to change now.

Just in case you didn't know, the right wing bastards like taking our rights away just as much as the left wing bastards. I will grant you that each group has a few rights they love to at least pretend to protect (1st for the left, 2nd for the right). When you are looking at the big picture though, I wouldn't be jumping for joy and saying our rights are saved/going to be restored because the party that brought us the Patriot Act is now back in power. Didn't they give us the TSA too? And DHS? Warrantless wiretapping of US citizens? The ability for indefinite detention without being charged, granted access to consul, or even telling your family where you are? And somehow they still had time to discuss a constitutional amendment to fix one of the most important issues of our day....... gay folk, cause we all know that those damned gays are gonna be the end of us all.

Please forgive me for not being all that excited about either party and their track record of slowly fucking us out of our rights. The only "good" thing I can think of, concerning our rights, is that the gridlock will probably prevent them from taking anymore from us. I guess thats sort of a good thing but I ain't busting out the confetti and champagne.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Wait until a terrorist group starts chatting about plans to use their anal cavity to hide a bomb. Get ready for TSA to start giving little children and the elderly body cavity searches.

This is all crazy because this mess could all go away with a simple solution: profiling and bomb sniffing dogs! That is what Israeli commercial airlines use, and how many of their planes have been brought down by terrorists?

But a big, centralized government's incentive isn't about simple solutions, it's all about gaining more control of the public.

Israeli security(Israeli Army) does perform pat downs and body searches, just not random but based on profiling and interrogation.

edit - And as someone who has been detained in several countries from profiling, it's no fun.

 

[Generator]

Funny how much Israel is brought up. Shitty little country with how many measly airports? The way they treat Arabs/Muslims I wouldn't be surprised if they are just flat out denied from airline service.

Its good to see Americans coming out of the fog that was Bush's deliberate terror over the country. But I'm willing to bet this country doesn't have the balls to be "free" and one successful terror attack will have them screaming at the top of their longs why didnt the government keep me safe?!

As for TSA I'm willing to go all the way down to underwear and be issued a TSA jumpsuit as I travel the air. We've already seen bombs in underwear, shoes, and mail cargo. Its only a matter of time before planes start falling out of the sky again. I'm not dying because of some Ben Franklin quote.

 

[matt0611]

Funny how much Israel is brought up. Shitty little country with how many measly airports? The way they treat Arabs/Muslims I wouldn't be surprised if they are just flat out denied from airline service.

Its good to see Americans coming out of the fog that was Bush's deliberate terror over the country. But I'm willing to bet this country doesn't have the balls to be "free" and one successful terror attack will have them screaming at the top of their longs why didnt the government keep me safe?!

As for TSA I'm willing to go all the way down to underwear and be issued a TSA jumpsuit as I travel the air. We've already seen bombs in underwear, shoes, and mail cargo. Its only a matter of time before planes start falling out of the sky again. I'm not dying because of some Ben Franklin quote.

How do you even have the balls to walk out of your house in the morning? Geez.

 

[JMapleton]

As for TSA I'm willing to go all the way down to underwear and be issued a TSA jumpsuit as I travel the air. We've already seen bombs in underwear, shoes, and mail cargo. Its only a matter of time before planes start falling out of the sky again. I'm not dying because of some Ben Franklin quote.

I've never in my life, in any forum, seen a bigger puss than yourself.

 

[Rainsford]

But we can't profile because the progressives along with the left get their panties in a wad over it. Political correctness and progressivism is counter-intuitive to what our goals should be which is the most protection for the least cost. When the progressives win, the rest of us lose.

We can't fight our enemy (radical extremists) to win, because that upsets the left. It then becomes more costly and they don't like the expense. You can't make them happy no matter what you do.

We must read those we capture their rights as if they were U.S. citizens. We can only engage the enemy during certain hours of the day. We should try those we capture in civilian courts with counsel provided at taxpayer expense and the insanity goes on and on and on.

Progressivism is the true enemy. We have the ability and the means to bring these conflicts to far swifter ends, but we are hampered by the mindset of a minority who's minds are stuck in adolescence.

The answer is to get them out of power and more or less tell them to get fucked which, BTW, we did earlier this month. They still bleat on as though they didn't get dealt a blow. They're ignoring the directive they were given. Both Obama and Pelosi have been particularly vocal in this regard.

Sometimes to beat an enemy, you have to dispatch another enemy first. That would be the case here. We can let extremists slowly wear us down and bleed us financially, or we can kick the progressives aside and get the job done.

I fully expect we'll take the first path - the wrong one. No reason to change now.

There IS useful profiling, mostly based on behavior. That's what the Israelis use, because they are a tiny-ass country with very few airports and flights and they can employ well trained behavioral profilers to extensively look at each passenger. We could try the same thing, but I doubt anyone would support the cost of doing that in a country like the United States. And no, harassing brown people isn't a good substitute.

 

[CallMeJoe]

There IS useful profiling, mostly based on behavior. That's what the Israelis use, because they are a tiny-ass country with very few airports and flights and they can employ well trained behavioral profilers to extensively look at each passenger. We could try the same thing, but I doubt anyone would support the cost of doing that in a country like the United States. And no, harassing brown people isn't a good substitute.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The Israelis are successful precisely because they ignore ethnicity and concentrate on behavioral profiling.

 

[MarkXIX]

Profiling doesn't have to immediately consider only race or national origin. Much like they do only marginally, it should focus on actions taken by passengers leading up to their travel.

For example, the underwear bomber paid for his ticket with cash, had no passport at the gate, etc., and was still permitted to fly. WTF? Seriously? None of those things really have to do with skin color at all. He should have been detained, period.

I would much rather have a system that considers my method of payment, time of ticketing, purpose for flying, destination, flight history, etc. Certainly someone could come up with computer algorithms and data mining that would look at this stuff to develop a "profile" on a passenger and then subject those people that fall outside the parameters to additional screening.

For example, I almost always purchase my ticket through one website, use the same credit card(s), travel to the same destinations where my family reside, etc. If I purchase a ticket that is "different" from that pattern, request more information from me. Shit, there's more safety in my use of my credit card than there is in purchasing an airline ticket!

Buying a short notice ticket, is it being bought by a business for business reasons? Or is it the next terrorist? Certainly there are ways to look at these things without considering race or appearance at all, but yet we get invasive pat downs and scans instead while ignoring the most basic of indicators that would change what we already do very little.