If your children aren't taught the state's official curriculum by a state-certified teacher, they'll be taken from you.

[yllus]

Mennonites may flee Quebec town

ROXTON FALLS, QUE. - Members of Quebec's only Mennonite community say they may move to Ontario or New Brunswick so they can keep their children in a private school that suits their religious beliefs.

Fifteen English-speaking Mennonite families in this small community in the Monteregie region say they won't send their children to government-approved schools, balking at the teaching of evolution, the acceptance of gays and lesbians and low "morality standards."

They say they are considering relocation out of fear that child-protection officials will seize their children.

Other townspeople here -- mostly francophone Catholics -- support the primarily English school, deemed illegal by Quebec's Education Department.

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen, who in the early 1990s was among the first Mennonites from Manitoba to move to Roxton Falls, a sleepy town on the Riviere Noire, about 100 kilometres east of Montreal.

"It's kind of sad because we enjoy the community, we have friends and we have good rapport with our neighbours.

"But when they threaten to take our children and put them in foster homes, that's beyond what we can accept," said Mr. Goossen, 56, a hog farmer who also works in a local factory.

News reports last year about unsanctioned schools led to a complaint to the Education Department about the Mennonite school.

Parents were warned they would face legal proceedings if their children aren't enrolled in sanctioned schools this fall. That could lead to children being taken from families, Mr. Goossen said.

Children are taught reading, writing, math, science, geography, social sciences and music. The education is mostly in English, but French is also taught.

For the school to be legal, the teacher would have to be certified and Quebec's official curriculum would have be taught.

"To do that, we would have to send teachers to schools we don't want to send our children to," Mr. Goossen said.

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

What the children are being taught sounds backwards as hell to me personally, but it's their parent's right to have them instructed any way they wish, in my opinion. Quebec is such a mess.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

*cue pink floyd*

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?

 

[Idontcare]

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

 

[sandorski]

Other than Evolution, are those other concerns part of Quebec's curriculum? I suspect they are not. That said, that is pretty harsh though.

 

[bamacre]

It sickens me to see people who think Evolution contradicts religion. Either they don't understand Evolution, or they don't understand their own religion. Or both I guess.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is a very interesting dilemma. Almost everybody is the bigot they were raised to be. If the school system could teach bigotry free, the society would benefit. It it teaches with a particular bigotry, the society will be harmonious in its bigotry. If, however, everybody is completely free to teach their kids all manner of bigotry at random, the society will be filled with every manner of bigot and its lack and society will be in constant argument within itself as to what truth really is.

We do know, however, or should I say some of us may occasionally suggest, that people prefer a homogeneous society over a fractured one. Why? Well of course, because self hate sleeps best in a quiet medium. Those of you who can see this, therefore, will be able to further predict, as an ineluctable consequence of this observation, that regardless of your bigotry, bigots would like to see it legislated into law. Aye, there's the rub. If a bigot could simply confine him or herself to his or her own particular brand of bigotry and not affect any other's rights around them, we could all care less what anybody else thinks.

But bigoted thinking is always trying to express itself in action as it seeks to quell anything that disturbs its peace. This puts bigots of any one particular persuasion against others not so infected but who may have developed, via direct experience with the virulence of bigotry in general, anti-bodies against that form of bigotry and who may, as a result, attempt to directly suppress it.

We here, for example, have a certain tolerance for Nazis and their right to free speech, the Germans will not tolerate. Here are two societies which learned vastly different lessons and paid different prices from and for this particular form of bigotry and which have. as a consequence, reacted in law differently.

At any rate, in coming to some rational solution to the bigotry that infects our world, we will continue to have one generation of bigots training the next until the accumulation of this poisonous karma finally causes our extinction.

The only answer to it that has any safety is for you to understand that the hate of others, which is what bigotry is, is the result of using 'the other' as a convenient target to displace ones hate of oneself from being put down and told you were worthless for this and that reason in childhood, over onto that 'other' who you conveniently attribute as having all those very characteristics you were made to feel you were worthless for because you had them. in spades.

Modesty, of course can help, as all this self hate is what deforms the ego and gives it it's need for permanence. This is why all religions aim to disable the ego so that something better can shine through. You could just realize that all your opinions are not just opinions but the enemy itself. You could invest zero energy in everything you were taught to believe, by others and by yourself. The meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

Suppose the minority believes it should drop an H-bomb on itself and is breeding like rabbits to get the majority vote so it can pass that law and self destruct killing the new minority too?

 

[Modelworks]

They need to leave them alone.
I have been to one of the Mennonite communities and they are the most hard working and polite people I have ever met.
I think they could do with some of the Mennonite teachers teaching in public schools, not the other way around.

 

[alchemize]

Hello, socialist borg! We will tolerate all opinions and freedoms that fall within the accepted list.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

That sounds good in principle but it breaks down in reality. Society makes this sort of judgement call constantly. It basically comes down to if you think that the state should be able to determine what the children in it learn because of that influence on society. I am a very big believer in "yes". The fact that the state can force people to go to school at all is an imposition of this type, but one I think our country (and Canada) are very much better off for having.

If you reject this sort of state control, then where does it stop? Is it okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children? Things like that? Those might be considerably more extreme then just some idiotic evolution deniers, but it comes from the same logical path and the question of either the state can mandate some minimum standards on you, or everyone is entitled to whatever opinion/teaching they want.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
They need to leave them alone.
I have been to one of the Mennonite communities and they are the most hard working and polite people I have ever met.
I think they could do with some of the Mennonite teachers teaching in public schools, not the other way around.

Mennonite communities in Pennsylvania (the Amish!) where I grew up were also havens of rampant incest and child molestation. After reading this I would say that I'm pretty okay without some Mennonite influence in our schools.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

That sounds good in principle but it breaks down in reality. Society makes this sort of judgement call constantly. It basically comes down to if you think that the state should be able to determine what the children in it learn because of that influence on society. I am a very big believer in "yes". The fact that the state can force people to go to school at all is an imposition of this type, but one I think our country (and Canada) are very much better off for having.

If you reject this sort of state control, then where does it stop? Is it okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children? Things like that? Those might be considerably more extreme then just some idiotic evolution deniers, but it comes from the same logical path and the question of either the state can mandate some minimum standards on you, or everyone is entitled to whatever opinion/teaching they want.

That's because you are a socialist. Welcome to the borg.

There's no difference between this, and Domestic spying.

Both are state invasions into our homes.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
They need to leave them alone.
I have been to one of the Mennonite communities and they are the most hard working and polite people I have ever met.
I think they could do with some of the Mennonite teachers teaching in public schools, not the other way around.

Exactly. Where I lived in Wisconsin had a pretty large grouping of Mennonites. Very hard working group of people. You should also see how well behaved their kids were out in public. As to their schooling, I'm not sure how they did it but maybe they were able to fall under the "home schooling" category in Wisconsin.

 

[1prophet]

I see alot of people have forgotten history as well as the saying the "road to hell is paved with good intentions".

The religious right was created because of the same "we will save them and society from their bigotry" mentality due to the Bob Jones incident in the 70's when the IRS was sent after them by certain individuals who wanted to save them and society from their bigotry.

We see today the effects of the religious right and its pinnacle in the current admininstration all because someone wanted to save us from the Bob Jones Universities bigotry.



Religious Right Has Distorted the Faith

In the course of one of the sessions, Weyrich tried to make a point to his Religious Right brethren (no women attended the conference, as I recall). Let's remember, he said animatedly, that the Religious Right did not come together in response to the Roe decision. No, Weyrich insisted, what got us going as a political movement was the attempt on the part of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to rescind the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University because of its racially discriminatory policies.

Don't cut your nose off in order to spite your face so you can be right because the results can be far worse than that which you were trying to save society from.

 

[Martin]

Quelle horreur!!! Next thing you know, the state will be telling me I can't have any studs on the belt I use to beat my children!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

That sounds good in principle but it breaks down in reality. Society makes this sort of judgement call constantly. It basically comes down to if you think that the state should be able to determine what the children in it learn because of that influence on society. I am a very big believer in "yes". The fact that the state can force people to go to school at all is an imposition of this type, but one I think our country (and Canada) are very much better off for having.

If you reject this sort of state control, then where does it stop? Is it okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children? Things like that? Those might be considerably more extreme then just some idiotic evolution deniers, but it comes from the same logical path and the question of either the state can mandate some minimum standards on you, or everyone is entitled to whatever opinion/teaching they want.

That's because you are a socialist. Welcome to the borg.

There's no difference between this, and Domestic spying.

Both are state invasions into our homes.

?!?!!? Well you are right about one thing, that I'm a socialist. Everything else... not so much.

Your argument is nonsense. There are hundreds if not thousands of laws that are 'invasions into our homes', it all just comes down to what is considered acceptable and what isn't. (oh, and what is constitutionally prohibited.... I'm looking at you domestic spying!) By your logic noise ordinances are invasions into our homes, the fact that I can't cook up some meth in my basement is an invasion into my home, what do you mean I can't make this bomb in my living room? It's MY house! I do what I want!

The price you pay for living in a society is that the society gets to make demands on you back. It is a bit unfortunate that there are few places in the world you can go at this point and not be subject so something such as this, but the point still stands. Your attempt to make a noble stand against all forms of government intervention in your life might sound good when you first think about it, but again is merely a sign that you haven't thought through the implications and logical extentions of your argument.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The price you pay for living in a society is that the society gets to make demands on you back.

When those demands become unreasonable we have revolutions to cast off tyranny and oppression, no matter how much you tell us to shut up and take it.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The price you pay for living in a society is that the society gets to make demands on you back.

When those demands become unreasonable we have revolutions to cast off tyranny and oppression, no matter how much you tell us to shut up and take it.

France does, You, not so much.

 

[alchemize]

Noise ordinances are when your home is infringing on the rights of others. Same with building a bomb or cooking meth, or any other "hazardous to the neighborhood" activity you do at your home. If you are going to make analogies, you might want to try one that is accurate and relevant.

Those constitutional freedoms that protect our "right to privacy" (which is a whole topic in itself) from spying also protect our right to raise our children the way we want to. If that means we want to teach them the UFO's are coming, it's our right. Socialism is not built into the US constitution. I've obviously given this much more thought than you have since your only answer is "for the good of society".


Your "for the good of society" is completely unconstitutional, as in this case it infringes on the right of religious freedom. I'm not familiar with the Canadian constitution but I guess they let socialism creep deeper into their society for the sake of good hockey and beer.

Props for admitting you are a socialist at least. I hope you live outside the US.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The price you pay for living in a society is that the society gets to make demands on you back.

When those demands become unreasonable we have revolutions to cast off tyranny and oppression, no matter how much you tell us to shut up and take it.

You're definitely right... stupid comment at the end notwithstanding. The claim that educational standards for children put out in the open for all to decide upon so that our children have the tools necessary to function in society is the same as the government harnessing military spy satellites without oversight on American citizens is a retarded comparison.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Idontcare

"It boils down to intolerance to our religion" by education officials, said Ronald Goossen,

Community members disapprove of other schools because "we don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Ah yes, the old "we are the victims of people who are intolerant of our intolerance" philosophy.

Tyranny of the majority over the minority is tyranny all the same. I may find their views ridiculous, but they're still entitled to them.

That sounds good in principle but it breaks down in reality. Society makes this sort of judgement call constantly. It basically comes down to if you think that the state should be able to determine what the children in it learn because of that influence on society. I am a very big believer in "yes". The fact that the state can force people to go to school at all is an imposition of this type, but one I think our country (and Canada) are very much better off for having.

If you reject this sort of state control, then where does it stop? Is it okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children? Things like that? Those might be considerably more extreme then just some idiotic evolution deniers, but it comes from the same logical path and the question of either the state can mandate some minimum standards on you, or everyone is entitled to whatever opinion/teaching they want.

Society does make this kind of judgement call constantly, and that's a constant worry. Of course it's okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children - because who's to say their beliefs aren't right and yours are? Even more obvious, why are UFO cult members so off the wall and, say, Mormons aren't judged to be? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or Scientologists? There's some wacked out shit in each of those religions and yet they're "allowed" to be taught.

The masses aren't omnipotent. If part of those beliefs are to harm others, then the state is more than welcome to step in. Otherwise, we need to butt out of other people's business.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: yllus

Society does make this kind of judgement call constantly, and that's a constant worry. Of course it's okay for UFO cult members to indoctrinate their children - because who's to say their beliefs aren't right and yours are? Even more obvious, why are UFO cult members so off the wall and, say, Mormons aren't judged to be? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or Scientologists? There's some wacked out shit in each of those religions and yet they're "allowed" to be taught.

The masses aren't omnipotent. If part of those beliefs are to harm others, then the state is more than welcome to step in. Otherwise, we need to butt out of other people's business.

Well I guess it depends on whether or not you believe that parents have the right to teach their children things that are demonstrably false and if that counts as causing harm to either the children or society.

 

[Modelworks]

If what is being taught to the children does not result in harm to them, then the state has no business intruding.
If someone wants to teach there children that ufo's exist, so be it.
Who are we to say they are wrong and we are right.

I agree that you have to safe guard against extremists, but say someone is saying "ufos exist, there are aliens among us", thats fine if its truly what those people believe.
That does not mean that you would allow them to teach "everyones an alien and must die, or we should all kill ourselves."

The debate however is about evolution. And about this I do not believe it should be forced on anyone.
There is no harm in denying its existence and instead believing in a higher power. Someone please prove to me there is no God .

I have faith in the future alot because there are still people like the Mennonites.
The next generation disappoints me constantly.
Children these days for the most part lack respect and values.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

The debate however is about evolution. And about this I do not believe it should be forced on anyone.
There is no harm in denying its existence and instead believing in a higher power. Someone please prove to me there is no God .

I have faith in the future alot because there are still people like the Mennonites.
The next generation disappoints me constantly.
Children these days for the most part lack respect and values.

Your appeal to logical fallacy is a strong argument for my point of view.

As for the second part I will point you to a quote often attributed to Socrates circa 400 something BC: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."