If you were to win the lottery...

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,135
4,791
126
Originally posted by: K1052
Anyone dumb/undisciplined enough to be better off taking the annuity will always go for the cash anyway.

The lump sum will sooner or later surpass the value of the annuity depending on your rate of return.
If you invest and if you invest well, the lump sump will financially pay off a bit more in most cases. I even said that in my post. The problem is once you put reality in the picture, people (a) don't invest big chunks of that cash and (b) they often don't invest it well. Instead many "invest" it in awful things like cocaine and strippers. Reality always wins. In that case, I'd much rather be moderatly wealthy for the rest of my life than to be very wealthy for a little bit of my life.

It is easy to say you won't spend it needlessly when you haven't won it. Things are different when you are the joys of seeing your bank account in the millions and you think the money is endless and you get 500 phone calls/visitors a day demanding your money.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: dullard
Financially speaking only, take the cash.

For virtually all other reasons, you are a moron to take the cash. You are already set for life, so you don't have to worry that you MIGHT make better investments by taking the cash. Look at all those people who did take the cash and how a huge chunk of them had miserable lives and many are now bankrupt. Money corrupts. The only way to avoid it in this situation is to NOT take the cash. Take the annuity if you are smart.

Anyone dumb/undisciplined enough to be better off taking the annuity will almost always go for the cash anyway.

The lump sum will sooner or later surpass the value of the annuity depending on your rate of return.

my head hurts
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,145
47,347
136
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: K1052
Anyone dumb/undisciplined enough to be better off taking the annuity will always go for the cash anyway.

The lump sum will sooner or later surpass the value of the annuity depending on your rate of return.
If you invest and if you invest well, the lump sump will financially pay off a bit more in most cases. I even said that in my post. The problem is once you put reality in the picture, people (a) don't invest big chunks of that cash and (b) they often don't invest it well. Instead many "invest" it in awful things like cocaine and strippers. Reality always wins. In that case, I'd much rather be moderatly wealthy for the rest of my life than to be very wealthy for a little bit of my life.

It is easy to say you won't spend it needlessly when you haven't won it. Things are different when you are the joys of seeing your bank account in the millions and you think the money is endless and you get 500 phone calls/visitors a day demanding your money.

IIRC, it is possible to sell the annuity off to a 3rd party as well to get a lump sum or accumulate massive debt load based on your future income. The temptaion is never really gone.

People/family/friends can call-visit all they like, they aren't getting jack unless I make the choice.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,135
4,791
126
Originally posted by: K1052
IIRC, it is possible to sell the annuity off to a 3rd party as well to get a lump sum or accumulate massive debt load based on your future income. The temptaion is never really gone.
Yes, you can sell it, and yes you will get one phone call a day about it (some rude guy does this as his career to call everyone with an annuity once a day).

But, your bank account will never be massive. The temptation is certainly lessened. It is basically the same thing as having a decent job for life, guaranteed. Someone making $150k/year* in a job isn't tempted to blow millions on a yacht. So why would someone making $150k/year in an annuity suddenly become that much more tempted to blow millions on a yacht?

*$150k/year is just a number I pulled out of thin air for a smallish lottery.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,846
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
Originally posted by: funboy42
I dont understand those that take the cash. When I was down with the lottery I got a kick out of the ones that took a one lump of $4 mil then taking the $25 mil over 20 years. How can you not live on over $1 mil a year for 20 years?? Just the interest alone should be plenty enough to live on. $4 mil will not last long at all. Sure after taxes you walk away with 700K but what you think your going to walk away with after taxes on the 4 million?? Hell I got 120K on my settlement and in less then a year after paying off debt and buying a house its gone, 4 million after taxes and buying stuff, paying off debt, wont be long till its gone, Atleast for $20 years you got the same checks coming in which should be more then enough to live on just the interest alone, when the checks are done your sitting pretty, and so will your family when your dead and gone, and their family when your dead and gone.

Im sorry but give me the $$ over time fvck the short term small chump change quickly, I rather take the larger sum over the longer period. Comes out to more in my pocket in the long run. Just live within your means and dont go nuts :p That one time take lesser amount lump sum was put in place IMO for idiots, sure you can invest it but what happens if that fails or the market bottoms out?

I understood it that you also can't give away your unearned winnings in a will. So if something happened to you, your family would be screwed. Is there any truth to this?
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,093
19,406
136
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Who's the idiot who voted for the annuity?

Edit - And who's his friend?

- M4H

Hopefully people honest enough with themselves to know they'd blow it all in a couple months/years and be left with nothing.
I'd take cash.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,145
47,347
136
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: K1052
IIRC, it is possible to sell the annuity off to a 3rd party as well to get a lump sum or accumulate massive debt load based on your future income. The temptaion is never really gone.
Yes, you can sell it, and yes you will get one phone call a day about it (some rude guy does this as his career to call everyone with an annuity once a day).

But, your bank account will never be massive. The temptation is certainly lessened. It is basically the same thing as having a decent job for life, guaranteed. Someone making $150k/year* in a job isn't tempted to blow millions on a yacht. So why would someone making $150k/year in an annuity suddenly become that much more tempted to blow millions on a yacht?

*$150k/year is just a number I pulled out of thin air for a smallish lottery.

People live beyond their means all the time. If you are irresponsible however you take the money will cause problems. I will grant that taking the annuity makes it harder to screw yourself if prone to being bad with money, but by no means is it impossible.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,135
4,791
126
Originally posted by: K1052
People live beyond their means all the time. If you are irresponsible however you take the money will cause problems. I will grant that taking the annuity makes it harder to screw yourself if prone to being bad with money, but by no means is it impossible.
I will agree with you there. Yes, with an annuity, you can blow your money away. But if you get $7500 a month, which is easy to spend most of it right away, it is also very easy to turn down the person begging you for cash. You simply don't have any cash on you to give out. Yes, you could sell your annuity to give the money away, but I bet it happens less often.

You could certainly buy 2-3 houses with that annuity (after that banks will turn you away). And 2-3 houses is all you really can afford in this case. But if you got the lump sum, you could buy 10 houses that you have no money to maintain nor to pay the taxes on for the rest of your life (and heck, many people don't even keep those houses, they go to family/friends). An annuity just keeps you from blowing it all right away or from spending too far beyond your means.

I think of it as an insurance policy. Yes, insurance costs money and yes, insurance won't prevent a tradegy. But, the insurance is there to help smooth things over in the bad times. Same goes with the annuity. It costs money and it won't prevent you from blowing everything. But it can certainly help to make things go smoothly for the rest of your life.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
I don't see why it is stupid to take the annuity. If I had $1000/month I'd be set. The lottery pays much more than that usually so I would be completely comfortable. Taking the lump sum, while it may have a greater return, is still a risk I'm not willing to take because the benefits aren't worth it.

It isn't always about getting the highest dollar amount. Sometimes its better just to sit back and know for certain that you've got it made. With the excess money from the annuity I could invest and double the amount of time I'm being supported. By the time that runs out I'm almost dead.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,145
47,347
136
Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't see why it is stupid to take the annuity. If I had $1000/month I'd be set. The lottery pays much more than that usually so I would be completely comfortable. Taking the lump sum, while it may have a greater return, is still a risk I'm not willing to take because the benefits aren't worth it.

It isn't always about getting the highest dollar amount. Sometimes its better just to sit back and know for certain that you've got it made. With the excess money from the annuity I could invest and double the amount of time I'm being supported. By the time that runs out I'm almost dead.

No offense, but how old are you?
$1000 a month won't even cover my mortgage.
 

PinmasterJay

Senior member
Jun 12, 2005
649
0
76
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't see why it is stupid to take the annuity. If I had $1000/month I'd be set. The lottery pays much more than that usually so I would be completely comfortable. Taking the lump sum, while it may have a greater return, is still a risk I'm not willing to take because the benefits aren't worth it.

It isn't always about getting the highest dollar amount. Sometimes its better just to sit back and know for certain that you've got it made. With the excess money from the annuity I could invest and double the amount of time I'm being supported. By the time that runs out I'm almost dead.

No offense, but how old are you?
$1000 a month won't even cover my mortgage.

Yeah, 1000/month is nothing

I have a good friend that is a great financial adviser so cash is my vote
 

QurazyQuisp

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2003
2,554
0
76
First, after I realized that I had won the lottery, I'd call a lawyer, the best one I can find. Pay him handsomely to make sure no one will figure out it's me who won. Put it in to a trust fund, get a financial planner, finish school and travel for a while then build a business. The first thing I'd buy would be the Jetta down the street for $6k, sure I could buy it now, but I don't need it.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,135
4,791
126
Ok, I did the math for a smallish lottery. Here are my assumptions:
[*]When buying the ticket you choose the annuity if you want the annuity. Don't choose the annuity AFTER winning, choose before winning. This is an important key to saving tax money with the annuity.
[*]Assume the annuity pays a 6% return. This is reasonable, I think they are often 5%-9%.
[*]Assume you get 10% return if you take the cash option and invest it.
[*]Assume you have the standard tax deduction and no other deductions.
[*]Assume you have no job and plan to live off the lottery.
[*]Assume just income tax as other taxes will be constant for both cases.
[*]Since states vary so much, I'll just use a simplistic state income tax model where you are taxed 5% of whatever you earned that year no deductions.
[*]Assume tax laws don't change.
[*]Assume you don't blow any money and you ONLY live off of the (annuity money you get each year) or (cash out money + interest that you get each year).
[*]Assume it was a 30 year guaranteed annuity (varies by state, with some states you can't get the guaranteed annuity and you lose it when you die, but you are dead so why would you care).
[*]Assume annuity amount is $4.5 million (this is what is advertised on the billboards).
[*]Assume you don't do any retirement tax shelters as you want to be able to spend the cash out money each year (lets say you are young).

Results:
With the annuity.
[*]Collect $150,000/year.
[*]Pay $41,043/year in income tax.
[*]Spendable money: $108,957/year.

With the cash out.
[*]Cash out is $2,064,725 (the initial annuity value).
[*]After tax, you have $1,258,991 to invest.
[*]Lets have a $108,957/year spendable money.
[*]The cash balance drops each year because $108,957+tax on the interest is greater than the interest.
[*]Money runs out at the year 28 point.

In this example annuity lasts you 2 years more with the same spendable money.

Now lets pretend the cash out gives a net 11% return on investment.
[*]Same as above, but your money lasts 36 years.

Now lets pretend the cash out gives a net 12% return on investment.
[*]Same as above, but your money lasts infinitely long and in fact slightly grows.

So the key is, can you earn more than 10% guaranteed with that cash? Since you can estimate that you'll get 10% in stocks, this is basically a break even deal. If you do better, the cash is financially better. If you do worse than 10%, the annuity is financially better.

Note: as the lottery gets bigger, the advantage shifts towards the cash out option. But still, you need a guaranteed ~9% return to break even. And you have to have massive self control not to spend. If the lottery is smaller than $4.5M, then you need a bigger and bigger return on your investments for the cash out to be worth while.

Note: yes, changing an assumption can change the picture slightly.

What I'm saying is that the cash out option really isn't that much better than the annuity. That is, unless you are a stock genious and do far better than historical returns. Plus, you can essentially always switch from cash to an annuity with a little paperwork (with the realization that you probably shouldn't plan on the switch for tax reasons).
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: funboy42
I dont understand those that take the cash. When I was down with the lottery I got a kick out of the ones that took a one lump of $4 mil then taking the $25 mil over 20 years. How can you not live on over $1 mil a year for 20 years?? Just the interest alone should be plenty enough to live on. $4 mil will not last long at all. Sure after taxes you walk away with 700K but what you think your going to walk away with after taxes on the 4 million?? Hell I got 120K on my settlement and in less then a year after paying off debt and buying a house its gone, 4 million after taxes and buying stuff, paying off debt, wont be long till its gone, Atleast for $20 years you got the same checks coming in which should be more then enough to live on just the interest alone, when the checks are done your sitting pretty, and so will your family when your dead and gone, and their family when your dead and gone.

Im sorry but give me the $$ over time fvck the short term small chump change quickly, I rather take the larger sum over the longer period. Comes out to more in my pocket in the long run. Just live within your means and dont go nuts :p That one time take lesser amount lump sum was put in place IMO for idiots, sure you can invest it but what happens if that fails or the market bottoms out?

Finance genius this one is.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't see why it is stupid to take the annuity. If I had $1000/month I'd be set. The lottery pays much more than that usually so I would be completely comfortable. Taking the lump sum, while it may have a greater return, is still a risk I'm not willing to take because the benefits aren't worth it.

It isn't always about getting the highest dollar amount. Sometimes its better just to sit back and know for certain that you've got it made. With the excess money from the annuity I could invest and double the amount of time I'm being supported. By the time that runs out I'm almost dead.

No offense, but how old are you?
$1000 a month won't even cover my mortgage.


I'm 20. I wouldn't want a house if I had a plan that would give me lifetime annuity (assuming like I said I invested the excess to keep it going longer). I travelled for a few months, some places cost $1500 and others cost $500 a month to live good. There is nothing more I'd like than to keep travelling but the problem is having a steady income to support it, which the annuity would solve.

Now lets say, like I'm sure the older folks will tell me, that I eventually want to "settle down" and get a house and kids and all that. Well after 10 years of doing whatever I want, I come back and still get a few thousand a month to get me back on my feet while I find a job to create more of a steady income. Depending on my luck I could get a decent paying career in the travel industry with that experience and if you add on the annuity + investments I should be comfortable until I die.

I know I'm looking to far into this I just didn't want you to blow off my idea of living on an island in the Phillipines sipping on a cold San Miguel :)
 

LordNoob

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
998
8
81
If you are over 40, always take the lump sum. If you take the payments over time and then you die, the government taxes your heirs on the full amount of the lottery winnings at the time of your death even though the money might not be paid out for another 20 years. Thus, your heirs have to forfeit the prize or face a tax bill in the millions they cannot pay.
 

Icepick

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
3,663
4
81
Originally posted by: dullard
Financially speaking only, take the cash.

For virtually all other reasons, you are a moron to take the cash. You are already set for life, so you don't have to worry that you MIGHT make better investments by taking the cash. Look at all those people who did take the cash and how a huge chunk of them had miserable lives and many are now bankrupt. Money corrupts. The only way to avoid it in this situation is to NOT take the cash. Take the annuity if you are smart.

Link please? I'd be interested to know how many lottery winners had their lives changed for the worse after winning.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: dullard
Financially speaking only, take the cash.

For virtually all other reasons, you are a moron to take the cash. You are already set for life, so you don't have to worry that you MIGHT make better investments by taking the cash. Look at all those people who did take the cash and how a huge chunk of them had miserable lives and many are now bankrupt. Money corrupts. The only way to avoid it in this situation is to NOT take the cash. Take the annuity if you are smart.

Anyone dumb/undisciplined enough to be better off taking the annuity will almost always go for the cash anyway.

The lump sum will sooner or later surpass the value of the annuity depending on your rate of return.

And anyone dumb enough to take the annuity and actually does take it will end up selling that at a horrible interest rate.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: dullard
Ok, I did the math for a smallish lottery. Here are my assumptions:
<snip>
progressive income taxes are a bitch, basically.

with the lump sum, almost all of your money is taxed at the highest marginal rates
with the annuity, much less is taxes at the highest rates.

makes sense to me.
 

Superself

Senior member
Jun 7, 2001
688
0
76
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't see why it is stupid to take the annuity. If I had $1000/month I'd be set. The lottery pays much more than that usually so I would be completely comfortable. Taking the lump sum, while it may have a greater return, is still a risk I'm not willing to take because the benefits aren't worth it.

It isn't always about getting the highest dollar amount. Sometimes its better just to sit back and know for certain that you've got it made. With the excess money from the annuity I could invest and double the amount of time I'm being supported. By the time that runs out I'm almost dead.

No offense, but how old are you?
$1000 a month won't even cover my mortgage.

:laugh:
No doubt!