If you DON'T support militaristic action against NK, why not?

[Londo_Jowo]

Because Africa does not border China or the south China sea.

China has ICBMs, I do not know of any nation in Africa that has ICBMs.

Just in case china decides to launch an ICBM, the US wishes to maintain early strike capability against China.

No need for land based ICBM's when a submarine can be in close proximity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_missile_submarine

 

[Texashiker]

No need for land based ICBM's when a submarine can be in close proximity.

And china has drastically increased its military spending over the past decade.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

And china has drastically increased its military spending over the past decade.

So? The US can/does have ICBM's in close proximity to many countries throughout the world via SSBN submarines.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Fuck North Korea. Fuck Syria. And, fuck any other place that isn't America.

They can all murder, butcher and kill one another - I do not care. We should step away from this bullshit of defending every huddled mass that can't band together and fight for themselves.

Go spill your own blood for your own freedom, on your own land.

 

[Texashiker]

So? The US can/does have ICBM's in close proximity to many countries throughout the world via SSBN submarines.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? I was not born then, all I know is what I have read and watched on TV.

If the US almost started a war over missiles in Cuba, why should China tolerate US missiles on their border?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? I was not born then, all I know is what I have read and watched on TV.

If the US almost started a war over missiles in Cuba, why should China tolerate US missiles on their border?

How do they know that these missiles are on their border? SSBNs can stay submerged for months.

 

[fskimospy]

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? I was not born then, all I know is what I have read and watched on TV.

If the US almost started a war over missiles in Cuba, why should China tolerate US missiles on their border?

I will repeat: the US does not have nuclear forces in Korea.

 

[Texashiker]

How do they know that these missiles are on their border? SSBNs can stay submerged for months.

It is not just missiles, china does not want US military bases right up next to their border.

 

[Whiskey16]

It ought to be the UN. An international coalition should address it.

Being that you are from the US, it is unsurprising that you do not comprehend what the UN is -- member states. It's those states, rather than the UN who decide and take action.

The UN does have agencies that may study and make referrals (as yesterday) based upon their conclusions, but it is then up to member states to decide and take action. Primarily upon such an issue it comes to the Security Council to move to and then support such an extreme as a Chapter VII military mission into a sovereign member state (as the 1950's Korean War), or refer a member state's citizens to the International Criminal Court.

As it's the Security Council, it's not simply a majority vote to make action. Member states must be able and willing to commit military contribution and leadership, further any of the permanent 5 can veto any such resolution. On this case, China or Russia very well may. Before any of you whine, that's just as the USA has done in a patron status for its Machiavellian rather than altruistic causes.

Unfortunately, many in the US failed to dissociate from the misinformation against the United Nations. It is not some independent world entity with its own power to enforce.

Sadly, there is no quick resolution and the status quo will remain. North Korea does posses and has demonstrated nuclear fission weapons (even a simple dirty bomb is a defensive deterrent). The best realistic hope for North Koreans is a collapse of it internal power structure, possibly fermented by its main donor state, China.

Hard facts: Want positive change? It's beyond your power and reasonable capabilities -- it's a Chinese or North Korean decision.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It is not just missiles, china does not want US military bases right up next to their border.

What bases does the US have that's close to their border? South Korea?

 

[Siddhartha]

The words "never again" are generally used in reference to the holocaust. Although Germany perpetrated this act, they were only able to do so because the world did not step in earlier on. Keeping in mind that history, and quotes like this: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.", let's look at this recent UN Report to come out about North Korea. And I didn't pick the comparison to Nazi-Germany, the UN report did.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/17/world/asia/north-korea-un-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



more:



If you don't believe that last bit, it doesn't matter. It's one story of thousands, all of which sound similar. Over the years we've got reams of information pointing to how horrific this regime is, how utterly depraved: mass arrests, killings, starvation, labor camps. Surveillance, fear, all of it and everything. NK has become a great experiment in how to be brutal to a population.

Here's what I think: I think we do nothing, the world does nothing. Eventually the regime crumbles and then we look back after having an even clearer picture of how awful it was and pretend that if we had really known we would have done something.

I don't think there's any degree of horror that NK can create at this point to get us as a world to act.

I do not think the US is going to go to war any time soon. The US can only handle one war a generation. George W Bush was able to push two wars through by defining them as really one war. If you are avocating attacking North Korea you going have to wait another 15 to 30 years before it will be politically acceptable.

That is unless NK attacks the US....

 

[Texashiker]

What bases does the US have that's close to their border? South Korea?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-china-sea/2012/06/22/gJQAZwf5vV_graphic.html

South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Guam, Taiwan.

There is a theory going around for the past few years saying the US is trying to encircle Russia and China with military bases.

 

[dainthomas]

If we didn't take the leash off Macarthur back in the day and let him handle it, we're definitely not going to attack them now.

 

[fskimospy]

If we didn't take the leash off Macarthur back in the day and let him handle it, we're definitely not going to attack them now.

MacArthur was behaving recklessly and incompetently at that point in the war. Giving him more power to expand the war to China was basically the last thing that should have happened.

North Korea is an abomination of a country and the human suffering there is constant and immense. I am not at all convinced that attacking them will make things better there in any way, however.

 

[werepossum]

Traditional artillery simply cannot hit Seoul due to range, it has to be rockets or rocket assisted artillery. Trying to inflict significant civilian casualties from these isn't possible. given the numbers and the amount of preparations that SK has made. People will be in shelters or moved south within a reasonable amount of time. They only have so many pieces of artillery and so many sites, and you can't saturate a city at the best of times... especially with a non-factor airforce.

I'm not minimizing the fact that a ton of civilians would die. It would be horrible for SK but frankly, they would win, and win big. The whole "NK can level Seoul" is just technically unfeasible unless you think they can deliver a nuke to Seoul somehow. If NK isn't heavily backed by China, they lose badly in any scenario.

And yes, it would be terrible... and practically without China on board, this doesn't happen.

I would love to see a JDAM right up Kim Jong-Un's ass but with the cost in lives it would take... I don't know. We do know that these despotic regimes tend to self destruct at some point... often followed by a worse one although.

As said. It's a shit sandwich either way.

Agreed.

I was in South Korea for over 2 years. To South Korea the North is nothing more than an after thought. We make so much more of the North then they do in South Korea.

They don't want us or the world to intervene. They don't want to be unified with the north. It would be a financial nightmare. I've talked to quite a few South Koreans and they have all told me the same thing. The financial cost of unifying both countries would be tremoundous.

Germany faced the same problem. Short term it's a nightmare; long term you double your economic strength and need to spend less on defense. (Although bordering Red China that last might not apply here.)

There's plenty of worse off countries in Africa. Why does nobody care about Africa?

There are no countries worse off than North Korea, anywhere. Even pre-invasion Afghanistan was a much better place to live. There are poorer nations in aggregate, and yes, with a very few exceptions (Nepal and Haiti and Afghanistan spring to mind) they are all in Africa, but income in North Korea is extremely concentrated in the elites even by African standards. And in sheer misery - starvation, oppression, torture, lack of freedom - no other nation even comes close. The oppression Saddam Hussein customarily visited upon his traditional enemies is light compared to that inflicted on most of the North Korean population.

 

[piasabird]

2nd Infantry Divison is close to the DMZ. So are tank traps and pre dug pill boxes. A lot of the camps are not large enough to be bases. 4/7th Air Cav was pretty close to the border at the town of Yong-ju-gol. There is also Infantry and artillery brigade. Camp Casey is in Seoul. Then CRC Camp Red Cloud is at Uijeongbu is the location of the Combined Field Army Headquarters. It is just north of Seoul and is considered like a suburb of Seoul.

http://www.newstrackindia.com/information/locations/Korea-(South)/1292346-city-yongjugol.htm

This town is about 5 miles from the DMZ. About 4 times that distance is the city of

http://wn.com/uijeongbu
This is a taxi ride from CRC to downtown. This area is really growing.

At one time I was stationed at CRC with the 8th Explosive Ordinance Disposal Detachment (EOD)

 

[Londo_Jowo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-china-sea/2012/06/22/gJQAZwf5vV_graphic.html

South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Guam, Taiwan.

There is a theory going around for the past few years saying the US is trying to encircle Russia and China with military bases.

These bases aren't close to the border with China.

 

[Atreus21]

Certainly not now that North Korea has nuclear weapons. Makes little sense to start something that would kill hundreds of thousands of South Koreans to save North Koreans, most of whom would probably aid Chubby Lil Kim in his fight.

Like so much in this world, we don't have a good choice and a bad choice, only two bad choices. In such a situation, inertia typically rules.

This, plus the larger issue: China.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Here's what I think: I think we do nothing, the world does nothing. Eventually the regime crumbles and then we look back after having an even clearer picture of how awful it was and pretend that if we had really known we would have done something.

I don't think there's any degree of horror that NK can create at this point to get us as a world to act.

I don't believe the regime will crumble to be honest, at least as long as China and other rogue nations supply them with weapons and their elite with luxury items and food. That's the problem we're seeing right now. Kim Jong Un (if he is even REALLY the guy calling the shots) and the leadership eat and live relatively well and reward those who fall in line, while brainwashing the populace very effectively. There will be no internal revolt in North Korea, so I'm not sure how you think the regime could crumble.

I feel very bad for those people and their suffering. At the end of the day, however, my belief is that both China and Russia created the beast and the blood is on their hands. Had China not butted in during the Korean War, the war is over in a few months and NK would never have existed. Had Russia not supplied NK with weapons, the war would've ended more quickly too.

I wouldn't put it beyond the NK regime in a desperate last act of betrayal to nuke the south just for grins, but let's say there's exceptional confidence (as reasonable as intelligence ever can be) that they are not weaponized and/or can be neutered. Would you then support any interdiction?

I would only support the use of US air and naval forces, not the use of American troops. Let other countries risk their soldiers for a change. And keep in mind, I've said before that I believe the US would take NK out in a matter of days or weeks, not months, and yet I still don't want to risk our men or pay for an occupation.

 

[Svnla]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-china-sea/2012/06/22/gJQAZwf5vV_graphic.html

South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Guam, Taiwan.

There is a theory going around for the past few years saying the US is trying to encircle Russia and China with military bases.

Vietnam's Cam Ranh Bay is open for everyone as they have hard currencies to pay, not just the US.

Philippines' Subic Bay and Clark Base are still talk in progress. PH is worrying about the bullying of China in front of their doors, that's why they want to invite the US back but the US military is not back completely yet. Same for Thailand. From your article:

Amid concerns about China’s growing military power and its claims to disputed territories, however, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines have cautiously put out the welcome mat for the Americans again.

I do not know about Taiwan.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

If we didn't take the leash off Macarthur back in the day and let him handle it, we're definitely not going to attack them now.

Truman's fear was that action against China would result in a war quickly spreading throughout the Asian theater and would result in the US being bogged down on several Asian fronts. Meanwhile, the Soviets could potentially take advantage of the situation and move into Western Europe. That's really why MacArthur was prevented from taking action within Chinese borders.

 

[AViking]

McArthur wanted to use nuclear weapons. He was a nutjob.

 

[dainthomas]

Vietnam's Cam Ranh Bay is open for everyone as they have hard currencies to pay, not just the US.

Philippines' Subic Bay and Clark Base are still talk in progress. PH is worrying about the bullying of China in front of their doors, that's why they want to invite the US back but the US military is not back completely yet.

I do not know about Taiwan.

That didn't make it sound like PI wants to give the US those bases back, just that they would like to give the US greater access (unless there's part of the story I'm missing).

Didn't realize the US Navy was visiting Vietnam now. That's great news.

 

[Sonikku]

There are tragedies all over the world. There are Africa nations where children are conscripted into militias that rape and pillage the country side. All terrible stuff. Thing is though if we intervened, it costs us money and the world hates us for it anyway. So fuck them.

 

[Texashiker]

These bases aren't close to the border with China.

There is not that much out there.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=sout...gl=us&ei=dpgDU-nDBMnOyQHjxYCADg&ved=0CKEBELYD